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My View On The C.B.A. and J.P.

Well it’s time to discuss some topics on what’s been going on for the past week. As we all know about Announcer Gate, John Paul Dellacamera (His full name) has been the voice of American Soccer for as long as I can remember.

He has been on T.V. for ESPN during past UEFA Champions League Matches, MLS Match of the Week, US Men’s & Women’s National Team matches as well as a former MetroStars/RBNY announcer. Recently he has been hired as the New Philadelphia Union T.V. Announcer on the local Philly ABC station. He was also the voice that called Paul Caliguri’s goal heard around the world when the USA defeated Trinidad & Tobago down in Port of Spain to qualify for the 1990 World Cup.

I have met JP in person during the 2007 RBNY season and I can tell you all he is a wonderful person to talk with, he will give you his opinion and advice whenever you need it. I have nothing against Derek Rae or Adrian Healey whom I also enjoy listening to their commentary for MLS, US Soccer & UEFA Champions League on ESPN. But this is an American network and for my money JP deserves to be apart of the TV broadcasting team and not relegated to the Radio.

For those who have typed their comments wanting Dellacamera gone, I can honestly say that I am ashamed at you. This snobbery has gone too far when it comes to those who announce the matches on TV. How are we to grow the game here in the States on the field as well as off the field? While I agree that Dave O’Brien was not the right man to be the lead announcer on ESPN’s 2006 World Cup Coverage, that doesn’t mean we have to stop allowing American’s to have a job doing play-by-play on the sport.

You can give me all the example’s of why it’s better for a British commentator to do the job, but if you want to continue the snobbery of it then do me and everyone a favor that is upset by this. Call Sky Sports & BBC Sport and ask them to teach our guys on how it’s done. Don’t sit there and continue to type on your computers and complain, do us the favor and beg them to teach our American announcers on how it’s done.

Now it’s time to look at the C.B.A. problems. Yes we know that it’s not signed yet and as Randy Capps has informed us a mediator has offered his services to both the League & players union to try and help push the problem into a solution.

As much as I want to see the players get what they want and to see these idiotic rules disappear completely, I hate to say that these annoyances must remain. I keep remembering the end of the 2001 season after both Floridian sides in the Miami Fusion and Tampa Bay Mutiny were contracted and when only three owners helped keep the league afloat. I didn’t like it, but I did understand why it had to be done.

With sixteen clubs starting this season only four of them are still paying rent to facilities that they don’t own. DC United still plays at RFK Stadium; Houston still plays at Robertson Stadium on the campus of U of Houston, Kansas City plays at a minor league baseball stadium & San Jose plays at Buckshaw on the campus of Santa Clara. Thankfully the Wizards Stadium project looks like construction is about to start.

There is still plenty of work to be done to make this league better. My feeling is that the players should just swallow their pride and sign the agreement, because there is more to lose than to gain for them, the league and us the supporters. Just one single day of a strike is enough blood in the water for sports writers outside of our sport like Jim Rome sharpening his claws and getting ready to toot his horn that this league is dead. One wrong move and all the positives that have been built will completely fall apart and this is not the time to smack the table and say “We Strike”.

I hope that both sides will listen to this mediator and will shake hands. Sign their John Hancock’s to the new C.B.A. and get ready for the 2010 season. The players time will come in the future, but as of right now just get ready for the season and let’s have a strong American squad for this summer’s World Cup.

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51 Comments

51 Comments

  1. David

    March 10, 2010 at 2:55 am

    All this talk about who announces the game and not a single comment about whether there will even be a domestic game to announce?

    I’m not sure I’ve got this right, but my understanding is, for example, when the Wizard’s failed to re-sign Kevin Hartman, they stopped paying him. But that didn’t mean he could just go sign for another team. The Wizards still controlled his rights. Now maybe it wasn’t much payment, but Dallas had to give up a draft pick to get him, even though KC no longer wanted him. In theory, KC could have refused the transfer and just kept Hartman in limbo, unable to play and without an income.

    If that’s right, then I can see why the players want to fight.

    • DClee

      March 10, 2010 at 10:49 am

      I agree with you 100% David. I am not inside the meetings and you will hear different people say different things but supposedly there is an offer on the table from the league to the players that would get rid of this altogether so if a team cut you then you are free to sign with whomever you want without said team getting compensated just like free agency to a small degree.

      I was talking to my brother who follows the EPL more closely but enjoys the fact that in the summer(he would not follow MLS if they were to align their schedule to match the international one as he already has enough to follow in the winter with all the American sports plus European football) so he can follow the domestic league and was unaware how close the players are to striking and he couldn’t believe that the players were even considering this at this stage of the leagues development and with most teams losing money yearly. He is casual fan/observer and does not like the rule you mentioned above and wants the players to get paid more but believes as I do that if the league is willing to get rid of this and even give the players a penny more then they need to move on with it and re address these other issues when most or the entire league is on more stable ground financially not just 3-4 teams. So you can see that your average soccer fan is more times then not side with the owners when hearing about the strike.

      I wish this thing would end already.

  2. DClee

    March 9, 2010 at 11:35 pm

    Oh, and the “I’m ashamed of you” comment by the author shows his rank amateur status as a writer.

    I agree with you Kevin that everyone is entitled to their views. I just thought it was a mean spirited of you to attack him personally with the “rank amateur status as a writer. ” comment, that’s all. He’s not really a professional writer. He is not writing for the Wall Street Journal or for that matter, Four Four Two. He is a blogger who made a blanket general statement and that is great for you to react but to single him out just because it obviously hits a nerve with you seemed a little to personal in my opinion. It is not like he singled you out and said “I’m ashamed of you”.

    We all love the game and all have our own opinions(some stronger than others) why can’t we respect each other and just voice our opinions without the personal attacks.

  3. Daniel Feuerstein

    March 9, 2010 at 2:52 am

    Thank You DC Lee. It is my view. That’s how I see it.

    Phil Schoen would also be another excellent pick as well. Like I said I have no problems with Rae, Healey, even hiring Martin Tyler, but J.P. should have been included with them or at least an American annoucer who does a fanastic job. JP & Schoen are at the top.

    Thank You Gazza for sharing my views as well.

  4. Kevin

    March 8, 2010 at 12:02 am

    What an absurd argument this is. American soccer growth and the success of our national team is not affected one way or another by having an American voice instead of an English one on the broadcast. Having an announcer that helps make the game more interesting for both experienced fans and newbies helps some for sure, but come on, this “We need an American in the booth” crap is just that: crap.

    Oh, and the “I’m ashamed of you” comment by the author shows his rank amateur status as a writer.

    • DCLee

      March 8, 2010 at 7:30 pm

      It’s a blog. He is entitled to his opinion as much as you are. Whoever said it was anything more. The title says it’s his “view”.

      • CoconutMonkey

        March 8, 2010 at 7:45 pm

        Just thought I’d chime in. Jim Rome is a douche.

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HNgqQVHI_8

      • Kevin

        March 9, 2010 at 11:15 pm

        Of course he’s entitled to his view. And pretty much by definition when he puts those views in a blog he’s asking for readers to comment with their views.

        And it’s my view that he’s wrong, and the high horse he got up on with the “ashamed” comment will get strong reactions every time.

  5. OleGunnar20

    March 7, 2010 at 5:00 pm

    So let me get this straight. You are basically saying that if England or Australia were to make the next World Baseball Classic that the BBC or Fox Sports AUS should only have home grown announcers do the games instead of Vin Scully and whatever 3 other top notch baseball announcers are out there (not a baseball fan)? Because that is the exact situation we are talking about here only in “reverse”.

    The nationalistic nature of the World Cup is about the teams on the pitch. Last time i checked the game announcers were not competing against one and other for a broadcasting world cup at the end of the tournament. And isn’t there some sort of creedo about sports announcers being “neutral and objective”. So you see, using any nationalistic argument for or against any particular announcer is simply a misguided transference of the nationalistic nature of the teams competing (and the fans cheering for them) into an arena (broadcasting) in which it has no relevance (and is specifically “taboo” by the very nature and standards of the profession). Which makes that line of argument invalid from the get go.

    When selecting an announcer for an event the only considerations are how good of a viewing experience they can create for the fan. As long as the person speaks the language of the audience in an intelligible and clear way then it really only comes down to how “good” one announcer compared to another. In this case it is pretty clear that JP is behind ESPNs other options in terms of “quality”. And quality is the only thing that matters in announcing, not origin.

    Now if you are the type of person who prefers the “fan-cast” type of announcing I can see why the lack of an American broadcaster would bother you. To you the whole World Cup, from the games all the way to the announcer’s booth, is a competition between rival nations. Of course it is a particularly insipid and pernicious kind of mindset that turns everything into an “us” vs “them” paradigm. Outside the confines of the game on the pitch the WC is supposed to be about bringing people together, from all walks of life and from all corners of the globe, to celebrate the beautiful game. It is much like the Olympics in that sense. If somebody needs an American voice announcing American WC games in order to enjoy the games, in some misplaced jingoistic fervour, that says more about them than anything else.

  6. Brian

    March 7, 2010 at 1:53 pm

    Televised soccer, ESPECIALLY the World Cupm is a spectacle. Bad announcers detract from the spectacle. It’s that simple.

  7. Brian

    March 7, 2010 at 1:50 pm

    “Enough with the xenophobia crap. Seriously. If you don’t like the idea of us-vs-them, then don’t watch the World Cup. ”

    It’s us vs them ON THE FIELD. It’s not us vs them in the studio or the broadcast booth.

    This is the one time every four years when the casual sports fan pays attention to soccer. If he tunes in and hears JP and Harksey yammering on and on about Beckham’s preferred brand of Kleneex, he’s going to say to himself, “This sport is boring that they don’t even talk about the action on the field.”

    Harkes is overly technical (Billy Packer-syndrome). JP is okay but he gets bogged down in statistics and these stupid side stories too easily. I haven’t heard Phil Schoen in a while but last time I did, he was beyond terrible.

    I fail to see how having announcers who DETRACT from the action on the field does any service to growing the game in the United States.

    Frankly, most Americans already know that the game is more popular in most of the rest of the world than in the US. Americans will tune in to the World Cup because we tune in to anything where we can be nationalistic. That’s why everyone watches the Olympics even though no one really gives a crap about nordic combined (no one outside upstate NY rooted for Bill Demong; they rooted for the random guy they didn’t know who happened to be wearing a USA suit). That’s why everyone watched the WWC in 1999 but no one watched the women’s leagues that followed. Having a guy with a British accent isn’t going to change that, nor an American one. So why not expose people to what good soccer announcing sounds like?

    The whole ‘guy you can relate to’ thing is meaningless. Ask yourself this. How did you fall in love with soccer? For me, there were two reasons. a) When the game is played well, it’s absolutely sublime to watch and b) I was absolutely transfixed by the passion soccer fans showed. The accent, or lack thereof, of the announcers calling the game played absolutely positively not one iota of a role in that.

  8. JJ

    March 7, 2010 at 2:06 am

    ESPN gets criticized for having commentators lacking soccer knowledge. They hired and assembled the best team they could get to cover the World Cup. Yet, you whine about with some nonsense nationalistic argument, which by the way, only exist in your pebble size mind. Your argument is the same crap that Hitler used back on his time. Get a clue. That’s not American.

    • CoconutMonkey

      March 7, 2010 at 3:24 am

      Ladies and gentlemen! Godwin’s Law: Exhibit A

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

    • This One Guy In Detroit

      March 7, 2010 at 10:30 am

      If you don’t like nationalism, don’t watch the World Cup. It doesn’t exist as some kind of neutral athletic exhibition for you to sit back and objectively enjoy. Nation-versus-nation is its very meaning.

  9. CoconutMonkey

    March 7, 2010 at 1:38 am

    C’mon people. It’s just the play by play. Just turn down the TV and turn on the radio. That’s what we did when Steve Stone left the Cubbies.

    Some of us are just happy to be able to watch the game at all. I usually end up watching my Fire matches with Spanish commentary courtesy of Univision and the internet. Un GOL! El FIRE! Talk about passion. Or should I say “pasión”?

    Ooo, ESPN should get that guy to call the matches. Paired with Shaka of course.

  10. SSReporters

    March 7, 2010 at 1:24 am

    I had no idea it was THIS difficult for people to accept American commentators are absolutely terrible. Some of you are a little too closed-minded. I know this because the next reply is almost guaranteed to be calling me a Eurosnob, when all I want is a GOOD commentator.

    • This One Guy In Detroit

      March 7, 2010 at 10:28 am

      “I had no idea it was THIS difficult for people to accept American commentators are absolutely terrible. ”

      Once again: You’re mischaracterizing the argument that’s being made.

      • SSReporters

        March 7, 2010 at 1:55 pm

        I’m paying attention to the argument that has ensued.

        I’ve already made my opinion about the original argument. I already said JP should’ve gotten the US games. It’s the idiotic Brit/Eurosnob jabs that I don’t get.

  11. ddtigers

    March 7, 2010 at 12:32 am

    It is crazy that it seems that everything coming from the UK is gold when it comes to football/soccer. All things American is rotten. I watch alot of EPL and love it but I also love MLS. The commentators really don’t bother in either league. But when I watch EPL/Italy matches I think the “talk” level is the same. Just another thing for “American” soccer to complain about.

  12. NON-EUROSNOB

    March 6, 2010 at 11:36 pm

    Its really sad to see all these eurosnobs…Why dont you all just move to THE UK where you can be fake and support clubs you have no ties too, talk with a fake accent and listen to EPL with their oh so great commentators. You all are a joke and you are whats wrong with soccer in this country.

    I HATE EUROSNOBS!

    • sucka99

      March 7, 2010 at 6:00 am

      fine – why don’t you just stick to the MLS then and we’ll continue to discuss the World Cup since it has more in common with the EPL than MLS.

      I HATE MERITOCRACY SNOBS

      • This One Guy In Detroit

        March 7, 2010 at 10:26 am

        Uh, not sure if you noticed, but this site is called “MLS Talk.” The MLS view gets to prevail here. Anything else essentially amounts to trolling.

        • sucka99

          March 7, 2010 at 3:34 pm

          so the MLS view is one of anti-meritocracy? of imposing tarrifs and banning immigration and non-American origination?

          you know I understand the arguments made about the growth of the game, the American voice, etc. etc. and that’s fine. But closed mindedness never made anyone successful.

  13. short passes

    March 6, 2010 at 5:39 pm

    I feel like I’m piling on but it still needs to be said. MLS and the USMNT need the best announcers and color men regardless of their accents and JP doesn’t make the grade. He talks too much and can’t bear to say anything negative about the players — awful passes become great defense; awful defense becomes brilliant offense. Please spare me the homer mentality. Of course it’s easy to see why he might feel the need to be mister smiley face when he looks at what happened to Wynalda — need to bring back Waldo for some “tell it like he sees it” moments.

  14. Seybold

    March 6, 2010 at 4:08 pm

    At a certain point, for USA soccer it’s got to be about quality of performance–both on the field and in the broadcasting booth.

    I’m sympathetic to your belief we need an American in the booth, but I don’t think JP is as good as the ones they have. I agree with Gaffer that Phil Schoen would be great–he’s the one I want calling USA-England, not a Brit (apologies to Scot Derek Rae), especially any of the English crew.

    The usual American announcers drive me to Univision and CBC. Incidentally, did anyone watch the U-20 WC in 2007 on Canadian TV? The Canadian trio that called the games was *much* better than any American this side of Schoen, and only included one Brit. I’d expect that for hockey…but soccer?

    I’m not ashamed to want better quality in the booth, and I’m not ashamed to say that anything less than the 2nd round, and a competitive performance there just isn’t good enough.

    • sucka99

      March 6, 2010 at 5:17 pm

      there’s an un-aired point – why not a Canadian? They can pass for American and might be better than JP?

      I guess the good Canadians are already going to be doing the broadcast for CBC or CTV or whoever.

      • Gazza

        March 7, 2010 at 11:17 am

        The guys that call TFC for CBC are Nigel Reed (transplanted Brit) and Jason DeVos (from B.C. but played in the UK for years so he sounds Cdn except for a phrase now and then – call him an intelligent John Harkes). The duo who call TFC for CTV are Gerry Dobson (Cdn) and Craig Forrest (Cdn). They would certainly pass for Americans. They’re good but not in Martin Tyler’s league.

  15. Brian

    March 6, 2010 at 2:53 pm

    Oh no, you are ashamed of me…terrible…

    How about YOU call Sky or Setanta and ask them to instruct our American commentators to better call matches? You clearly care more than any of us about having an American in the booth.

    Fact is, the guys ABC/ESPN got do it best and JP isn’t there because he isn’t at that level. I’d rather have the best in the world than somebody just because he is American.

    • SSReporters

      March 6, 2010 at 3:03 pm

      He could call Setanta but he wouldn’t get an answer……

  16. Charles

    March 6, 2010 at 2:05 pm

    Very smart of ESPN with rights to soccer played in this country.
    Put in guys noone can relate to.

    They will be asking rhetorical questions instead of statement, won’t they?

    Going for commentators that noone thins are cool, just not smart for a station that has built an empire on doing the opposite.

    • SSReporters

      March 6, 2010 at 2:40 pm

      We tried that approach last time and it failed.

      People relate to Dave O’Brien but he was a daft idiot out there who insulted soccer fans for being impatient with his inept commentary.

      I would prefer JP on the USA matches only but that’s it.

  17. Ron Collins

    March 6, 2010 at 1:43 pm

    We should have exactly ZERO accents broadcasting World Cup to the US audience. ONE REASON AMERICANS DON’T WATCH SOCCER IS THE ENGLISH ACCENTS!!! Get a clue ESPN, ABC etc. There are well-qualified American broadcasters that will not turn off Joe Sixpack, because this will always be a fringe sport in this country until it appeals to the average fan. Or until the US wins something that really matters.

    • Gazza

      March 6, 2010 at 2:01 pm

      EVERY BROADCASTER HAS AN ACCENT RON.

      Every MLB, NBA, and NFL announcer has an accent.

      • Charles

        March 6, 2010 at 2:07 pm

        Sure but an accent/language that an American relate to.

        I will be watching without sound. The British announcers are just so annoying.

        • Gazza

          March 6, 2010 at 2:17 pm

          You do know they are speaking English right?

          And I would think that 90% of Americans would think Martin Tyler is cool. The guy is the best in the world. Are you really telling me that you’re a soccer fan and you can’t “relate” to Martin Tyler?

        • SSReporters

          March 6, 2010 at 2:43 pm

          What makes them annoying? The fact they actually let the game breathe instead of acting in a condescending manner to their audience?

          Why can’t you understand that American announcers for the most part are terrible? They don’t shut up and many of them don’t know the rules of the game. For most of them soccer has never been in their blood until recently, JP, Glenn Davis, and I guess Schoen are the exceptions to the rules but they are in NO way better than Tyler, Darke, Rae, and Healey.

          • This One Guy In Detroit

            March 7, 2010 at 10:23 am

            “Why can’t you understand that American announcers for the most part are terrible? ”

            Why can’t you understand that this isn’t the crux of the debate? The people arguing for an American voice are not idiots who lack your fine powers of discernment when it comes to broadcast quality. Our push for an American commentator is based on OTHER FACTORS.

            We happen to think those other factors outweigh whatever increase in “quality” is brought by Tyler and company.

            And let’s be honest: What this really boils down to are the USA matches. That’s what is really bugging people — the fact that our World Cup story will now be told by someone else (and specifically in the case of the June 12 game, by our very opponent!). That’s not cool.

          • Charles

            March 7, 2010 at 2:22 pm

            What makes them annoying ? Have you listened to them ?

            The witty prepared statements, the weak rhetorical questions instead of strong statements ( they are annoying, aren’t they ?), the “drunk sounding” color guys that I guess are supposed to be represent the average fan.
            It must be lost in translation because this German-American doesn’t get it.

          • SSReporters

            March 7, 2010 at 2:54 pm

            And American announcers provide???

            I’ll give you the drunk-sounding color analysts though. Nigel Winterburn on Everton/Hull this morning is the epitome of bad.

  18. Gazza

    March 6, 2010 at 12:33 pm

    As Charles Barkley would say, “JP is turrible!!”
    I don’t care if the 4 lead announcers are from Canada, Mexico, US, or China – the best get the job.

    JP vs Martin Tyler. It is not even close.

    • This One Guy In Detroit

      March 7, 2010 at 10:14 am

      Those of you who keep blindly repeating this mantra (“Tyler deserves it because he’s best”) keep overlooking the fact that nobody is disputing that. That’s not the argument. The argument is about an American voice should being on the game BECAUSE IT’S AMERICAN.

      Nobody is disputing that Martin Tyler is “the best” in some absolute, universal context. But this debate is not about some absolute context. It’s about a specific context: the airing of USA games in the USA.

      And that’s the thing none of you are addressing.

  19. PP

    March 6, 2010 at 12:06 pm

    JP is average. Tyler and Healy are superb.

  20. Reece

    March 6, 2010 at 12:04 pm

    This is the only time you can attract true non-soccer fans to the beautiful game. Give them the best in the world! To be blunt, the general public associate British accents with soccer knowledge. Make them comfortable and you might get a few extra fans. If they bring in a british team for the MLS Cup I’ll be on your side. Also your CBA argument is stupid. Why not tell the owners just sign what the players have on the table? It goes both ways and some of those moronic rules need to go!

  21. Brian

    March 6, 2010 at 10:28 am

    This cheap xenophobia is pathetic.

    JP may be a great guy but he’s only okay at calling soccer. I used to like him but I’m afraid he’s gotten worse in recent years. He talks too much. He’s overreliant on shoving statistics down our throats. He spends too much time talking about irrelevant off-the-field stuff (not even relevant off-the-field stuff), especially when good action on the field is happening. “Oh by the way someone scored a goal, now back to my story about Beckham’s favorite brand of Kleenex.” All this is less of a liability when calling a game on radio than on TV.

    Yes, he’s better than any other US play-by-play guy other than Glenn Davis, but that says more to the lack of competition than himself.

    I want an announcer who enhances what I see on the field, not who detracts from it. I want to watch a game without muting it because the announcers are so annoying. How is this anti-American? How is this snobbery?

    No, not all British announcers are great. And there are a few decent American color guys (Greg Lalas, Kyle Martino). But it’s not about defending any nationality or bashing any nationality. It shouldn’t be about nationality at all. It’s about who will do a good job at the sport’s biggest stage.

    How does it “grow the game” to say give the most prominent spot in soccer announcing to someone who just isn’t good enough, simply by the accident of his nationality? How does it “grow the game” to draw the casual fan in only to have them bored or confused to death by announcers who may know the game but don’t know how to call a game? It offends me to say I ought to put up with crappy announcers just because they hold a US passport.

    • This One Guy In Detroit

      March 7, 2010 at 10:06 am

      Enough with the xenophobia crap. Seriously. If you don’t like the idea of us-vs-them, then don’t watch the World Cup.

      Nobody is being xenophobic simply because they want a homegrown voice calling their national team’s games. That’s a ridiculous slur, and you’d be wise to stop throwing it around.

      • Jason

        March 7, 2010 at 2:53 pm

        Or else what?

  22. Jason

    March 6, 2010 at 9:32 am

    I am sorry you are ashamed of me. Somehow my day will go on. If ESPN is going to have 4 announcers, and he is the 5th best option in their opinion, then oh well. In my opinion, and I am willing to be bashed for my opinion, Tyler, Rae and Healey are all better. I remember Darke from 1994, and I enjoyed his commentary.

    At the end of the day, MLS and American Soccer will not fail because of the announcers ESPN choses for 30 days in June. Fix labor relations, the ability to keep top Americans, the ability to attract better international players and refereeing, then we can worry about who ESPN choses for commentary.

  23. sucka99

    March 6, 2010 at 5:56 am

    How is it snobbery to say that the guy isn’t good enough? Saying JP should get the job because he’s American is like saying foreigners shouldn’t play in the EPL. Meritocracy should be the order of the day. As for asking the BBC to tell them how it’s done, I’d be glad to. But I’d rather ask good announcers from other sports here (very few who are still employed) to show JP how to add to a broadcast without subtracting.

    • This One Guy In Detroit

      March 7, 2010 at 10:01 am

      “Saying JP should get the job because he’s American is like saying foreigners shouldn’t play in the EPL.”

      No, saying JP should get the job because he’s American is like saying the World Cup is a tournament involving national teams, and America’s national team is America.

      This isn’t complicated to understand. If you want to argue against the points that have been made by Daniel, the Gaffer and others, then you need to actually address their points. Simply shouting “Martin Tyler is better than JP” over and over doesn’t do it. Nobody is arguing that point.

      • sucka99

        March 7, 2010 at 3:30 pm

        This apparently is complicated for you to understand as the World Cup isn’t being competed in the press boxes. Their point is their opinion and I’m responding with my opinion – putting on a good product, a good show should trump homerism. ESPN doesn’t owe anyone anything wrt their programming decisions – and I should know as I’ve been let down by them multiple times. But to come in here as the argument police trying to IMO fight the fight against Eurosnobbery while equating everyone’s counter arguments to lack of understanding or lack of patriotism (others more strongly than you) is very offputting.

        “Simply shouting ‘Martin Tyler is better than JP’ over and over doesn’t do it. Nobody is arguing that point.”

        well i’ll try not to shout next time.

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