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Philadelphia Wins In Rainy U.S. Open Cup Affair

Posted on by Earl Reed

The new-look U.S. Open Cup saw most of the American-based Major League Soccer clubs in action on Tuesday evening. At PPL Park, the Philadelphia Union rode two goals from Freddy Adu to outmatch the visiting USL-Pro side Rochester Rhinos, 3-0.

With manager Peter Nowak suspended for an infraction at last year’s Cup play-in versus D.C. United, coach John Hackworth took the helm for the Union, and set out what proved to be the most attacking formation observed in quite awhile. The system was a fluid 4-3-3, led up front by Lionard Pajoy. Adu and Josue Martinez swapped roles on either side of the stout Colombian. The backline was perhaps the bigger story. Carlos Valdes was also suspended for this match, so Hackworth deployed midfielder Amobi Okugo in a central defensive role alongside Sheanon Williams.

Philadelphia v. Rochester USOC 5.29.12 Adjust Philadelphia Wins In Rainy U.S. Open Cup AffairThe Rhinos lined up as a 4-4-2, with a counterattacking mentality that conceded that their best chances would come on the break. Several of the Rochester XI have had first division experience, including their goalkeeper Kristian Nicht, who started several matches for Alemannia Aachen in their brief stint in the German Bundesliga.

The Union were the superior side tactically, controlling possession for large portions of the match. Michael Farfan was the dominant wide player on the right, which allowed Adu to drift central and be more of a straight attacker. To cover Farfan’s advanced wing position, Michael Lahoud would fill behind from a defensive midfield role, as Jack Traynor and Danny Earls looked to exploit the space left by Farfan’s runs. Most typically working on the left, Martinez played as a winger, and proved a key role in Adu’s first goal.

The Union opened the scoring early off a corner kick. Freddy Adu booted an outswinger, and the ball caromed off a Rochester defender towards Nicht. Martinez got a boot on the ball just before the German keeper could collect, and that made it 1-0.

Then in the 22nd minute, the match was held up for a passing thunderstorm. The rain soaked the pitch, but the players came back out after an hour. 7 minutes after the delay, Adu put the Union up by two. Martinez made a run to the byline down the left, and he put a scintillating touch on his lofted cross. It appeared Pajoy would be the one to meet it, but Adu’s run from the 18 yard line was perfectly timed to allow him to head home the chance. Nicht got a finger on the shot but couldn’t keep it out.

The Rhinos had their share of chances. In the 13th minute, a cross was played in from the left, and Scottish-born Thomas McManus met it at the far post. Unfortunately for Rochester, Chris Konopka’s positioning was perfect to save the powerful header. And in the 69th minute, an incisive counterattack saw substitute Michael Zaher receive a low cross one-on-one with Konopka just inside the area. He fired a low-shot, but it wasn’t on target and the Rhinos’ best opportunity went begging.

Philadelphia put the game out of reach from the spot in the 73rd minute. Michael Farfan, who moved to the left back position once his brother Gabriel came off with an injury, made a run at Quavas Kirk. Farfan eluded the right back, but once he entered the area Kirk brought him down and the referee awarded a penalty. Adu calmly left-footed the ball low to Nicht’s left. The Union was able to see out the clock, and their 3-0 victory allows them to advance to the 4th Round. They will travel to the Maryland Soccerplex in a rematch of last year’s play-in against D.C. United. The match will take place on June 5th at 7:30 PM.

84 Responses to Philadelphia Wins In Rainy U.S. Open Cup Affair

  1. Tijuana Robert says:

    Another nail in the coffin for Single Entity. Last night’s Open Cup
    matches proves that this country needs Pro/Rel.

    • Charles says:

      QED. So you can quit, trying to prove it, it is already done.

    • crosswiredmind says:

      Nope. Not a good idea on any level. Trying telling the average
      American sports fan that his or her favorite pro team is suddenly
      no longer eligible for the top league. It simply does not fit our
      cultural values. We have minor and major leagues in all of our
      sports for a reason.

      • Tijuana Robert says:

        So Minnesota fans don’t deserve division 1 status because of…
        cultural values? That’s a new one!

        • crosswiredmind says:

          If they can’t pull together the investors and fanbase required to
          be a major league team, then no – they don’t deserve top tier
          status. That’s the American way.

          • Alex says:

            The American way sucks. Screw American traditions. Has it ever
            occurred to you that America upholds capitalism and laizee faire
            but sports wise its so socialist it makes the USSR look like a
            beacon of freedom. Why are we so backwards. Every single super club
            started from humble beginnings so back then they wouldn’t even be
            allowed to work their way to div 1 because that’s the American way.
            That’s stupid no wonder America cannot compete in soccer. Pro rel
            works in 99% of the world for a reason. Don’t fix what is not
            broken especially if you fix it with single entity. its the most
            backwards closed structure ever. There is so much special interest
            and lack of competition in single entity its a ticking time bomb
            for a anti trust lawsuit.

      • BamaMan says:

        There may (or may not) be legitimate financial reasons to oppose
        pro/rel but it absolutely fits American cultural values. We’re
        supposed to be about rising up from your bootstraps and capitalism
        and the free market and freedom and the ability of any man to rise
        above his station and achieve greatness, aren’t we? The reason we
        have minor leagues and major leagues have nothing to do with
        culture; it has to do with money. It’s tough to create a
        sustainable business model for minor league sports that’s not
        subsidized by the majors. It’s tough to subsidize while also having
        pro/rel.

        • crosswiredmind says:

          Players move up and down the minor/major ladders. The businesses
          stay where they were built. That is the core of American sports
          culture.

        • Charles says:

          There is no reason, in an unbalanced league schedule that MLS has
          to EXCLUDE teams from winning it all, is there ? No you can not win
          it this year, we moved you down, wait until next year, if you are
          good enough, we will give you a shot. Makes no sense to me. Put
          them in MLS if they are financially able to do so, make the league
          40 teams when that is able to be done……………….In England
          maybe, maybe it makes sense, they can only have 20 teams and a
          balanced schedule. Plus the English league is a joke, so only a few
          teams will win anyway. Not so in MLS, LA is in last right now. San
          Jose, close to first.

          • Alex says:

            How does mls make any sense to you. Let me get this straight.
            Please for the sake of all sane people are you saying that a format
            that basically punishes winning clubs while subsidizing and
            rewarding mediocrity clubs in which its impossible to determine the
            best performing and most deserving club because the chances of that
            happening are so little. Because since 2008 atleast one finalist
            team were on the fringes of qualification to the post season and
            all except last year has the least deserving least performing club
            won the cup. and the format changes every year (albeit due to
            expansion) so its impossible to have any consistency. Furthermore
            the clubs that actually turn a profit has to pull the weight of the
            rest of the league. Because the league owns every team there’s
            always going to be special interest and lack of true competition.
            Manufacture rivalries and manufactured fans are paraded around like
            a show horse for profit gains. The few that have all the power do
            not even have a soccer background. So you are saying that all that
            all that is better than a format that says ok the club that
            accumulates the most points is champion. You must be crazy. Btw
            there’s more parity in epl than you may think. This year Tottenham
            and new castle broke the big four dominance,.lots of upsets and the
            championship was determined at the last minute with 3 simultaneous
            games were playing .

          • Tijuana Robert says:

            The U.S. Open Cup proves that MLS is a manufactured league. Where
            were all the Timbers fans singing the national anthem? It was still
            “their” beloved Timbers on the pitch, no? 50% of MLS got bounced by
            Semi-Pros.

          • Charles says:

            @Alex, convenient of you to leave off the top spending team won
            again in England………………… Alex: “There is more parity
            in the EPL than you would
            think”………………………………. Me: “The up and coming
            Swansea coach just left his very fast rising team, he left to coach
            a team, that have never won the EPL, probably never will, but
            actually has a chance unlike his current team……you would never
            see that in a NON-joke league”…………………You would rather
            the championship be determined by money, because I like soccer not
            big business (like Man U), I would rather see it determined on the
            field. We just disagree, no big deal. We both have a league.

          • Charles says:

            You still didn’t answer why you would EXCLUDE ( through rel. )
            teams from winning the championship. That makes no sense. None.

          • Tijuana Robert says:

            @Charles, you do realize that Reading won a championship this year.
            So did Carlton Athletic and so did Swindon Town. Those are titles
            as well but the difference is those teams move up to compete with
            better competition. Carolina Railhawks had the most points in NASL
            but Montreal gets faux promoted. HAHAH what a joke

          • BamaMan says:

            Charles, we currently exclude every team in the United States and
            Canada outside of the 19 in the MLS from ever competing for a MLS
            Cup. If they want to ever do it, they have to spend $100M on an
            expansion fee.

          • Charles says:

            No, I don’t believe that BamaMan, I believe we are only excluding
            teams that don’t fit financially, no different than any other
            league. If a team came forward with a great stadium and a plan to
            make MLS better, they would be in faster than you could say single
            entity. Not so in the other leagues. Anything out there right now
            is MLSHater blogs dreams……………….Here is the deal, there
            have been around 40 teams in the EPL, if/when MLS gets to 40 teams,
            let’s discuss pro-rel. Otherwise, one you are excluding teams from
            winning it all ( by capping the league at 20 teams ). Two it is all
            just pipedreams. Puerto Rico WILL be able to draw enough, I just
            know it………………………ps. the expansion fee for NY is
            probably $75 million, the rest of the nation would be closer to $50
            million.

          • Charles says:

            @ Robert, you STILL did not explain why Reading wasn’t allowed to
            win the EPL last year.

          • The original Tom says:

            Reading weren’t in the league. They didn’t earn EPL status. You’d
            rather have status paid for and earned in business meetings, we’d
            rather see it earned on the pitch. It is more fun to watch that
            way.

          • Tijuana Robert says:

            @Charles, please explain why Minnesota and Carolina aren’t allowed
            to win MLS Cup this year and every year after?

          • @Charles…there are around 6,500 clubs on the 23 levels of England
            pyramid ( NOT A TYPO..it is 6,500), it is mathematically imposible
            to make then into just one division……..is that hard to
            understand?…i am sorry , I don’t know any other way to approuch
            your “smart a…” questions………….teams not in 1st div are,
            of course, are not allowed to win a division they are not into, but
            they are allowed to be prooted, they are allowed to
            dream………let me now copy your style,. Why were Seattle not
            allowed to win CCL last year? …….maybe because they are tied UP
            by a salary cap that does not ALLOW THEM TO
            DREAM?…………….Reading may be bought tomorrow by an arab
            king, a russian millionaire or, IRONICALLY by an american (like Man
            Utd), and them maybe tomorrow the sky is the limit for Reading.
            They are allow to dream with greatness! Are your Sounders allowed
            to dream with greatness charles?

          • Charles says:

            We now return to the real world from blog fantasy land, starring
            Orig Tom, Robert and some guy name Pro/Rel ( ok he probably doesn’t
            make the trip )………………….around 40 teams have made EPL
            in the modern money era. 20 are ecluded every year from winning it.
            Original Tom seems to think it is determined on the field ? I know
            this comes as a shock but the top money team just won again and
            there is a fairly ( sarcasm ) strong tie between how high a team’s
            promotion and money in England. Robert thinks that Minn and
            Charlotte are forbidden from winning. I agree…for now, but when
            MLS gets to 40 teams, they will certainly have teams at the top.
            Harrisburg City Islanders will not. So much different than England.
            Ummmm no, did you forget, we are back in the real world ? Don’t
            demote teams artificially, it doesn’t make sense, both financially
            in either system and because isn’t fair in a parity system.

          • Tijuana Robert says:

            @Charles, I don’t think Minn and Charlotte are forbidden from
            winning that isn’t my opinion, it is a fact. They can never win MLS
            Cup under the current system and isn’t MLS Cup the champion of
            “division 1″ soccer. I will NEVER support MLS even if they put a
            team in SD because MLS doesn’t represent every village, town, city
            and mega-city only but only the select few who paid their franchise
            Fees to Ronald McGarber. Funny how a club like Xolos (2007), who
            operate independently, have already developed USMNT talent while
            Sounders haven’t done crap for US team.

          • Charles says:

            First all the Sounders do have capped players. You knew that, I
            told you already…………………..Did Donovan come from Xolos
            ? Nah, came from MLS. Dempsey, yeah same….and on and on and
            on……..MLS is doing a great job. I actually hope San Diego
            doens’t get a team, just so I can hear you whine some more.

      • i get it crosswiredmind:……we are getting spanke by mexican
        clubs on CCL, but you guys support “single entity” because…”in
        america, we like winners man. We don’t like
        loosers!”….?????????……………..besides, you say that
        americans would not support relegated clubs, but…..isn’t
        Charleston, Carolina, Orlando, Minesota, San Antonio and many
        others permanently relegated now?…..how would pro/rel make their
        realities any worse than it is now?

        • crosswiredmind says:

          Risk mitigation. Investors desire stability and return on
          investment. The very notion of promotion and relegation causes
          instability and increases risk for the investment. Charleston,
          Carolina, and all of the other minor league clubs were established
          knowing the markets they would play in, the budgets they would
          need, and the risks and returns they could expect. If you want to
          test the promotion/relegation waters, put together a business plan
          for a team playing at the top tier. Now go try and raise the
          capital required to keep that team running. Now explain to the
          investors that all of the club’s revenues could suddenly drop. In
          fact, they could very well continue to drop, until the team hits
          rock bottom and moves into the amateur ranks. The US doesn’t have a
          bunch of rich people lining up to own their own soccer teams. US
          banks have no interest in backing a business that could implode
          because a bunch of athletes couldn’t perform. The whole thing
          simply won’t work here.

  2. Brendan says:

    I’m not saying the match would have ended differently (Philadelphia
    deserved the win), but I would have loved to see the Rhinos play
    with proper rest. Instead they played two games during the weekend
    before Tuesday’s match and their touches suffered severely. Oh
    well. Congrats to the Union and good luck against the Swamp Scum
    next week.

    • Earl Reed says:

      That’s a great point Brendan. The Rhinos have a good account of themselves for sure. It’s too bad that their schedule is such that they have to squeeze two fixtures into a weekend. Can’t take away their distinction as former Open Cup Winners!

  3. Charles says:

    Very exciting games last night. I watch parts of a lot of them. LA
    losing late to Carolina was very fun ( not for LA fans ). The Fire
    losing reminded me of the 70s, was that a high school indoor field
    ? Sweet. Only soccer lovers were watching that.

  4. BamaMan says:

    I’m not sure what all these losses mean in terms of pro/rel, but
    they do mean that MLS is not doing a very good job of scouting and
    developing talent. Even a scrub player in MLS ought to be able to
    make more than any of these other teams can afford to pay; thus one
    would think that the best players in the country would be on MLS
    rosters. Apparently, that is not the case. A couple of losses is a
    fluke, but even if they were playing MLS Reserve teams, there’s no
    reason for 8 out of 16 MLS squads to go down. This has probably
    been the best week in the modern history of the US Open Cup. But
    it’s been a bad week for MLS.

    • roger(Pro/Rel) says:

      these loses do not mean anything in ternms of pro/rel……..even
      if MLS franchises had won all their games, the essence of the
      argument for p/r does not change……….we should implement p/r
      because it is the right thing to do! Because p/r is in tune with
      the idea of a global game that include ALL, and let them win their
      status by their results…………because our game is inspired by
      a philosophy completly different that the one followed by american
      sports………….because to enjoy a true soccer experience should
      no be a priviledge that money can buy……because pro/rel will
      bring also other benefits to our society, that can not be
      quantified in dollars and cents(this is a part of the p/r argument
      that is never considered)………………….the pureness, the
      rightfullness behind pro/rel is so big, that we should implement it
      , EVEN if there was a chance that it wil fail.

  5. crosswiredmind says:

    Interesting that (like many comment threads) an attempt at a
    reasonable and civil discussion reverts to name calling and
    off-the-wall accusations. “corporate bot” “the American way sucks”
    Yeah. That helps. Tell you what – when you have a cogent argument
    why promotion and relegation would work in US business culture, let
    me know.

    • Tijuana Robert says:

      Are you serious? Do you even know what you are talking about?

    • BamaMan says:

      Making a financially sound argument is easy; having a pro/rel
      system expands the audience for the top tier and it puts the lower
      tiers on much better financial footing (provided controls are in
      place for costs). This a) expands the TV audience for the top tier
      (i.e. MLS) because it makes their results relevant to many more
      people (those who want to be in MLS) and b) aids domestic talent
      development especially in areas without MLS clubs (potential of
      promotion=more money for lower tier clubs=better talent development
      infrastructure for those clubs). There’s a reason every other
      country in the world who is successful at soccer and has a
      successful national league (thus excluding Australia) does it that
      way. There are real logistical impediments to putting in pro/rel
      right now, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be working towards
      it.

      • crosswiredmind says:

        As I said above, try selling a business plan to investors where
        risk and instability are inherent in the business model. You say it
        would be “financially sound”, but saying it and demonstrating that
        you are correct are two very different things. And frankly the
        whole talent development angle makes no sense. Brazil doesn’t even
        need a real league to be the best. It all comes down to cultural
        values. Brazil values soccer and it is part of the fabric of their
        national DNA. In every other sport in the US, the system of
        college, minor leagues, and major leagues works perfectly well and
        developing talent. The quality of our National Team will only go up
        when top US athletes choose soccer over football, baseball, or
        basketball. It has nothing to do with the structure of our league.

    • because our bussiness culture is supossed to be about oportunity,
      competition and performance.

    • “reverts to name calling and off-the-wall accusations. “corporate
      bot” “the American way sucks”………..the only name calling that
      I thing really think suits you guys is:
      ……………………………….. self appointed guardians of
      the status quo.

    • roger(Pro/Rel) says:

      @crosswiredmind…….can you articulate how “single entity” is
      more in tune with our bussines culture than pro/rel?

      • crosswiredmind says:

        Yep. When the MLS formed, soccer was not very popular. The NASL
        worked under the assumption that it was popular, so teams could
        just go ahead and operate as if they were a part of a sports league
        on par with MLB, the NFL, and the NBA. The NASL crashed and burned.
        So MLS needed a way to spread the risk, maximize on the ROI, and
        avoid the pitfalls of launching a new sports league in an already
        crowded marketplace. The single entity system worked. Risk
        management, business planning, and overall league management were
        centralized. That reduced redundancy from front office to front
        office around the league. It provides a level of control and
        financial management that have allowed the league to not only
        become an established sports league, but to actually sustain itself
        for 16 full seasons. They went from buying air time to having media
        outlets bid for it. The MLS has provided stability and risk
        mitigation for a new business venture trying to break in to one of
        the most competitive markets there is – the US sports scene.
        Investors like success, but they invest based on risk versus
        return. The single entity provided a platform that controlled risk
        and maximized return by providing a stable business model.

        • Tijuana Robert says:

          Again, you have zero idea what you are talking about. Since
          inception two franchise clubs have failed. MLS transferred league
          risk onto all franchise clubs by linking them together. In finance
          you diversify your portfolio as much as you can from un-Systematic
          Risk also known as specific risk. What McGarber did was essentially
          make all franchise clubs sensitive to risk from a foreign league
          eating MLS’s Lunch (See: EPL RATINGS v. MLS RATINGS) to over all
          failure by linking all franchise clubs together. They did not
          reduce risk but simply transferred all the risk onto the shoulders
          of Seattle, Portland & Vancouver because they are carrying the
          weight of the stagnant league.

          • Tijuana Robert says:

            The risk of having franchise clubs attached at the hip will make
            the pain of Systematic Risk much greater, which is risk you can’t
            diversify. Wouldn’t you rather see a club fail and only that club
            rather then an entire League?

          • crosswiredmind says:

            Yes, Miami and Tampa Bay folded, but the league did not.
            Diversification? Sports leagues do not do that. They have one
            product to offer. As for “systematic risk” – that is factor in the
            broad financial markets and portfolio management. It is not a
            business concept. Under the NASL’s model when a big club failed it
            caused great harm to the others. The point of the single entity is
            to control the risk factors and close clubs that start to harm both
            the top and bottom lines. The loss of a club in the MLS causes less
            harm to the whole.

        • @crosswiredmind…….first you explain very well the “thought
          process” that lead our leaders to “single entity”. That was not
          exactly my question, which was: how is single entity a better
          representation of our business culture than pro/rel?……your
          thought process, however, shows what is wrong with US soccer.
          Single entity is not wrong because of the factors that it
          considers, but because of the factors that it ignores!…..if you
          look at SE, just from the investors point of view, it makes perfect
          sense! No risk of relegation, low salaries, exclusive first div
          rights, etc……..but, for the fans, players, cities, the
          development of our youth and NT, it is a different history! Most
          importantly, SE is in total contradiction with the universal values
          of our game………single entity gives us an inside to what kind
          of mentality is in charge of our game in the US……….. I mean,
          when they were debating to implement SE, wasn’t anybody there with
          some kind of understanding of our game,that said:….”hey guys,
          what about the other elements of the game”?……….”I think there
          is not balance on this, it only cares about investors and nothing
          else!”……………apparently not!……….that is our main
          problem, people with limited or NONE knowledge, respect, or any
          king of involvement with our game, are the ones calling the
          shots……………but the main problem is the USSF. MLS is, after
          all, a private club, and as a private club they can implement any
          kind of idiotic rules. ……….but the USSF is supposed to be the
          institution which duty is to do what is best for the game in the
          whole nation, not just a selected number of cities. When USSF gave
          exclusive first division status to MLS, knowing that MLS was going
          to be a closed league, it did not acted according to its
          duties………to take back the USSF from the incompetents that
          actually sit there, should be our #1 priority……….we will
          never pursuit our true potential until we retake the USSF back.

  6. Pete says:

    Ah, the old pro/rel argument. In my humble opinion, yes the US
    should have it but when people have thrown 100 million into a
    franchise they aren’t quick to want to risk being relegated.
    Promotion and relegation is good for the fans and for the lower
    tier teams but it’s not too good for owners of current MLS teams,
    I’m sure there are some owners in England who would want to have a
    league where they didn’t have to worry about going down but there’s
    not too much chance of that. It’s a case of you pay your money and
    you take your chance. I agree that there isn’t much hope for
    smaller clubs when they don’t have anywhere to go and nothing to
    aspire to. At least fans in England can dream. Blackpool were
    playing in the fourth tier of English football 10 years ago and
    made it to the top so however remote, dreams can come true, as long
    as your not in the US that is

    • roger(Pro/Rel) says:

      @Pete…good post!….just a thought, the investors that paid a $40
      millions franchise fee, of course do not want to know about
      pro/rel……they probably asked about that before getting into
      it…….did USSF/MLS guaranteed them that pro/rel was never going
      to happen?………………now, if (assuming) USSF/MLS guaranted
      them not to worry about pro/rel, without taking the fans in
      consideration………weren’t them also taking a
      chance?……..what if fans get organized and fight for it?

    • crosswiredmind says:

      But “smaller clubs” in the US (regardless of the sport) know that
      they will always be smaller. It’s like a local coffee shop. The
      owners know they won’t be Starbucks unless they build a business
      plan to compete at that level. When it comes to sports, folks have
      started alternative leagues. They had plans to compete with the
      established leagues. The most recent was the USFL back in the
      1980s. It failed. Soccer is a different story because the leagues
      require certification by the USSF and, by extension, FIFA. So there
      won’t be a competitor for the MLS – unless it fails. That leaves
      the other leagues to compete as minor leagues. They know this going
      in, and build their business plans accordingly.

    • Charles says:

      You realize there are according to Pro/Rel 6,500 teams in England.
      You have one example ? Again 40ish teams have made it in the money
      era. Put MLS at 50 teams and call it better. Way better.

  7. just a thought: if there is no pro/rel, the tags of first, secong
    and third division are meaningless. MLS, USL and NASL are just
    independent, not connected leagues……… How could we be really
    sure that the MLS Cup Winner is our national champion? ….my point
    is:….. if there is no pro/rel, then, there should be a tournament
    between the champions from MLS, USL Pro, and NASL. Whoever wins
    should be the legit US Champion.

  8. roger(Pro/Rel) says:

    @Charlles…you said:…….”around 40 teams have made EPL in the
    modern money era. 20 are excluded every year from winning
    it”…………….actually, there are around 6,500 clubs on
    England’s pyramid, so aproximatelly 6,480 clubs are “excluded” from
    wining the premieship(1st division) every year………………can
    you believe that? what a disgrace Englan’s club soccer is!
    ……we, on the other hand, give all of our 19 clubs a chance to
    win!……………………we are wayyyyyy better than them! God
    forbis we ever exclude more than SIX THOUSAND
    clubs!…………….So, what do we do with our clubs not on
    MLS?………………….should we “give them cake?”

    • Charles says:

      Whatever makes you sleep at night. I am sure there are 6,500 teams
      in the US excluded too. You know full well even in the 40ish that
      made it, 25-30 of those never had a prayer and 5 more of the ones
      left barely had a prayer……..so to insinuate it is competition
      among 6500 teams is just dumb. Installing Pro/Rel is a waste of
      time and good money that MLS needs.

  9. to use the word “excluded” for the 6,500 clubs that in England have
    a chance to work the system up through promotion, and say that it
    is the same for non MLS clubs, which CAN NOT gain promotion no
    matter what results they accomplish (including knocking MLS clubs
    in CCL!) ……..that is not dumb?

    • Pete says:

      This is the key point Roger. It is not about who will make it to
      the top league or who has a chance to win the Premier League, it is
      about the chance to do so. That idea that you can make it to the
      top, are you likely to? No, probably not, and even more unlikely to
      it. However, if you look at Man City who have just won the league,
      they themselves were in the 3rd tier of English football 10-15 yr
      ago. And as for people who big clubs have nothing to worry about,
      Man Utd was relegated in the 70′s, Leeds Utd who at one time were
      the biggest club in England went from Champions league to
      relegation and still aren’t back in the Premier League. Everyone
      has a chance to go up or down and that is something good in my
      eyes, wasn’t that the idea of going to the US at one time, the idea
      that you could make it, become rich, live the dream, no matter how
      much money you came with or what background you had? Now ask how
      many people did actually make it and the number would probably be
      less than 1% but the dream and the idea was there. Small clubs in
      the US know that no matter how well they do they will never make it
      to the top and to me it’s a shame that the people who have the
      money have won out over the very idea of the American dream (the
      small man rising to the top)

  10. roger(Pro/Rel) says:

    you couln’t have said it better Pete!………that is the reason
    why Haiti, and Vanuatu, and Guyana play the World Cup qualifiers,
    not because they may have a realistic chance of wining the World
    Cup, but because like Pierre de Coubertin, founder of the modern
    Olympics said
    :……………………………………………………. “The
    most important thing… is not winning but taking part”

  11. Charles says:

    Let me take a wild stab and guess Pete still supports the King and
    Queen concept too. It is not whether you have a chance, it is just
    that we let you live here, in our land. Of course you are inferior,
    we have no plans to share the wealth and please we will decide who
    is semi royalty…Sir Alex is. Pheasant Pete please play in the
    lower devisions. It might be better for you later, keep the dream
    alive…..carry on.

    • Pete says:

      One, I don’t live in your land, I live in merry old England. Yes I
      like having a Queen, but that has very little to do with football.
      Pheasant? Do you mean peasant? If you’re going to try and dish out
      insults, try not sound like a retard when doing so. LOL, If you’ve
      managed to succeed in America it can’t be that hard hey?

      • Charles says:

        Not trying to insult you. You and your country are free to do
        whatever you want. Including Pro-Rel. It is just very Royal
        family-like of you to support a structure that competely cements
        centralized power…….while pretending they are being the fair
        system…….you do understand why, that just doesn’t work in the
        US ? We don’t support Royalty, whether it is the King/Queen’s
        family’s reign OR Sir Alex’s reign. We want Columbus and Salt Lake
        to have a chance, someday Robert in San Diego will have a chance
        too. Probably quicker than any of us would have thought 5 years
        ago. And you want to limit it to 20 teams ? Why ? Answer the
        question.

  12. Charles says:

    BTW, @Pete. Roger and Robert……You STILL have not answered my
    question……………..My dream in MLS at 100 teams, each with a
    chance to win it. Your dream is 20 teams. Why do you want to
    exclude teams ? It STILL makes no sense to me. Throwing rhetoric at
    it, has not, nor will not answer that question. Any team that is
    meets EPL guidelines should be in the top division, but you don’t
    agree, why ?

    • Tijuana Robert says:

      No Charles, there are already teams in place just look at the Open
      Cup. Minnesota has a team, Cal FC, Charlotte, Harrisburg etc. etc.
      etc. You still can’t answer why these professionals and fans don’t
      deserve a chance to support their team to the top. You want Ronald
      McGarber picking creating teams out of thin air when there are
      already teams who have support and players.

      • Charles says:

        Rhetoric will not answer the question. Wasn’t Minnesota the ones
        playing on the indoor high school field, and Cal FC doesn’t really
        even have a field do they ?……………..Again I am for
        Minnesota joining, I hope they meet minimum qualifications (which
        every league has). I want 100 teams in the top tier, it is 19 and
        growing fast, YOU want it capped at 20 teams, WHY
        ?…………………………………….One non answer……and
        counting.

        • Roger(Pro/Rel) says:

          @Charles. I think that you are too rooted in the “american way” of
          doing sport leagues. You over focus on MLS, and look at the rest as
          not important. That mentality shows in your questions. You see
          teams not on MLS excluded just because they are not on MLS; we see
          them excluded because they have the doors closed to get to MLS
          through promotion…………Look at the size of our nation! Even
          with your dream 100 MLS clubs, ( which will never hapen!) we will
          be still leaving thousands of cities and millions of fans out!
          ……………….I don’t dream with a league, because it is
          mathematically imposible for one league to satisfy our true soccer
          potential…….It can only be done by creating a logical
          hierarchical divisional structure, that:- takes in consideration
          our specific greography, -socio economical factors,-the pure spirit
          of our game-etc. ……..that can only be done, when we have
          leaders that understand, that, unlike the NFL and MLB, soccer is a
          global game inspired and guided by a diferent philosophy that
          american sports are.

        • Tijuana Robert says:

          I’m sorry Charles, I prefer results on the field to determine what
          division you play in and not “minimum requirements” set for
          financial gain. USA is facing a country tonight who’s population
          can’t even fill Tampa’s stadium and what makes the World Cup so
          exciting is that the everyone in WORLD HAS A CHANCE>! Imagine if
          the World Cup was only for the teams who qualified back in 1930 and
          every single country was locked out of the competition.

          • Phillip says:

            Lol so everyone should get a shot even though everyone doesn’t have
            a shot? While in theory that is a valiant and honorable thing to
            do, its not needed. All it does it spare peoples feelings not give
            them the honest truth. Teams form the English lowest levels aren’t
            winning the EPL anytime soon if ever unless they get a hella cash
            infusion. Which if they did would mean they bought themselves into
            the EPL which is no different then buying a stake in MLS. Instead
            of buying a straight ticket to the EPL they would outspend teams
            until they got there so your just holding back the inevitable a
            couple years instead of one. I rather have 20-30 teams who can win
            a league then 4-5 and 15-16 others who fight to place 5th and down
            and the weaker ones to not get relegated. Look do I like the idea
            of the little man going all the way but Americans don’t care as
            much as you think. The NCAA basketball championship which has
            little teams to super teams had its lowest tv ratings when the
            little teams progress in the tourney. Oh and yes soccer is a global
            game but so is basketball and they have different rules for it over
            seas they didn’t copy the USA so we don’t have to copy them for
            soccer.

          • Charles says:

            @ Robert and Roger…….Both of you, STILL failed to answer the
            question. Robert, Every top league in the world has minimum
            requirements. You are just trying to sidetrack the discussion, so
            you don’t have to answer the question………..Roger, ditto by
            throwing out rhetoric, the NCAA basketball championship is from
            EVERY team EVERY year, THAT IS THE AMERICAN WAY…………..You
            chose to artificially say some of the teams can’t win a title. by
            limiting the league to 20 teams through Pro-Rel Why ? Just answer
            the question. Why would you artificially exclude teams ?Just answer
            the question. Just answer the question.

          • Charles says:

            @ Robert, The other side track you put up is irrelevant as I want
            every team that is eligible for MLS to be in the top division. So I
            am no locking out “1930 style” the league. You are the one locking
            teams out, not me. Why ? Just answer the question.

          • Charles says:

            Just for the record, that is three times THE QUESTION, has been
            avoided now…..The stats, Robert is at 2 times, and Roger is at 1

          • Alan says:

            Apples and oranges. You can’t buy players for the World Cup like
            you can for league teams.

  13. Roger(Pro/Rel) says:

    @Charles because your question is manipulative(I could use other
    adjetives as well). ……..In order for you to feel answered, we
    have to swallow your poisoned pill that not being on fist division
    on a pro/rel set up is the same (in your view) as being on USL or
    NASL. …..the premise of your question is the problem!

    • Tijuana Robert says:

      @Roger, we are arguing with someone who is still advocating for a
      best of 3 MLS Cup playoff format.

      • Charles says:

        Good try Robert, you are not arguing with me, you are avoiding me.

      • Charles says:

        One more question, why do you waste your time changing the subject
        ? I am not going to respond. There is only one reason why…..you
        know I am right and you don’t want to admit it. You are thinking to
        yourself, let me see if he will argue about playoffs now. That
        might work……Otherwise you and Roger, actually you OR Robert OR
        Pete, would answer the question. Just answer the question. Why do
        you want to exclude teams from winning the championship ? Why ?
        Don’t bring up how MLS quality stinks, don’t bring up Salt Lake won
        it all, don’t bring up Garber is an idiot, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.
        Just answer the question.

    • Charles says:

      For Petesake….please answer the question…………….@ Roger,
      I do NOT think that USL is the same as being pro/rel, another
      attempt to change the subject. A weird attempt, not sure what you
      are even talking about, USL is minor league soccer, second division
      is first division soccer excluded from winning…………….5
      times not answering the question. Why do you want to exclude teams
      from the first division ? Just answer the question
      ………………………………In order for you to answer the
      question, you have to admit you are excluding MANY teams every year
      from winning the championship. Which you are, but pretend you
      don’t. Yeah, I can see why it is tough for you……Because Pro/Rel
      is a STUPID idea !!!!…….If a team is qualified for first
      division, why do you place them in second and third division ? Just
      answer the question.

  14. Roger(Pro/Rel) says:

    @Charles…….sorry to tell you but, I think you are reaching a
    new low logic point!……………your question is the aquivalent
    of asking:……..”why did CONCACAF excluded the Sounders from
    wining the CCL, by not allowing them to play the
    final?”…………………or…………”why FIFA “excluded”
    Guatemala from playing on South Africa 2010?”……………….the
    answer is : because neither the Sounders or Guatemala had the
    RESULTS that allow them to get to that specific
    stage!………..just like in life, you cannot become a head chef,
    until you first become a shef!…………..in soccer just like in
    life, there are stages, levels , divisions….get the
    idea?!……………………….Now, Charles please before you
    come back with more of your “Garber’s logic”, read a couple of
    soccer magazines, hit the web, learn abouth soccer culture(wich is
    differenty than american sports) and then come back!…………if
    you don’t do it, you will just be slowing down, and lowering the
    quality of this debate, in which case you will be better ignored.

    • Charles says:

      Roger I have been playing, watching , following and even coaching
      soccer since before you were born, give me a break.

    • Charles says:

      Actually one more comment, your comment feeds exactly into what I
      have said all along. The only reason the trolls are on this sight
      is they are pathetic fools looking for something to feel superior
      about. Put others down to feel better about themselves. Their
      mantra is you are only a US soccer fan and I get soccer better than
      you………………………….I am guessing you don’t even know
      what Subbuteo is, no idea who Kyle Rote Jr is, never saw the Dutch
      play Total Football, didn’t coach since the 70s, but you still pull
      out a superior card. You definitely don’t care about US soccer,
      zero posts away from this…..Did I say fool…..yup perfect word
      for it.

  15. Charles says:

    Well the question will go unanswered by you for obvious reasons, so
    I will answer it for you………………You want it that way
    because it fits your current leagues. Parity is not what you want.
    You want the same teams winning. There is nothing wrong with that.
    Nothing to get upset about. Roger with his exclamation points and
    Robert with the shut ups are over board, you don’t need to feel
    insecure about it, even in the US………………….In the
    Europe leagues, they CAN’T have the 40th place team in the top
    division. The top spending team had a GD of 64 ! 89 in Spain ! Can
    you imagine including teams 21-40, it would be 150-200
    goals……………………….BUT, we need and have parity in
    the US. A joke league is not going to work here. As such, and
    having a parity league, if a team meets the minimum standards, they
    WILL be in the top division. There is ZERO reason for excluding
    them, in fact it would be stupid to do
    so…………………….The better luck next year CAN NOT be
    better luck in two years and there is no reason for it to be any
    other way……………..I would say thanks for the conversation,
    but you added absolutely nothing to it. Go back and
    look……………………ps maybe I made you insecure with my
    joke league comments ?

  16. Roger(Pro/Rel) says:

    @Charles…….you could have been involve in soccer since king Tut
    times, but when u advocate for parity, your soccer ignorance
    becomes clear…………….soccer is (I know I sound like a
    broken record) among other things, a reflection of life, and forced
    synthetic parity, goes against its nature, and takes away one of
    the ingredients that make the game special. ……………parity
    is needed on the American sports model because there is no
    renovation on closed leagues. …..soccer is guided, it is inspired
    by a totally different philosophy that American sports are, instead
    of realizing that truth, you keep trying to make our game fit your
    small mold…………..but if u have not realized the difference
    by now, I think u never will. Can’t teach an old dog new tricks!

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