Barcelona Bore Me To Death


392251051 e7a0f8f7d8 Barcelona Bore Me To Death

Photo by dan_noctor

I’m writing a piece for www.football365.com today about Barcelona which, in essence expresses how frustrating I find their football; how, though it is technically brilliant, it just doesn’t stir my football passions. I find it quite clinical and cold while admittedly highly skilful. OK, it’s the sort of football some people like but it just isn’t my ideal watch. I prefer something with a bit more physicality. It’s horses for courses, right?  We don’t all have to be the same, we take that for granted in life, don’t we? Not on the Internet you don’t.

As I write this it’s not been published yet but I know that it will inevitably lead to a lot of people insulting me and saying I’m an idiot and worse for basically not sharing their view that Barcelona are wonderful. This is the childish but very modern way – saying, if you do not share my opinion you are de-facto wrong and not just wrong but a fool, an idiot and actually a complete c*nt.

A few others will agree – but such controversy tends to attract the negative much more than the positive response.

Now, if you’re a reasonable sort of person, the idea of insulting someone on the Internet probably seems a bit of a daft thing to do. After all, you really don’t know them, you’ve probably not paid to read their point of view, you have nothing invested in what they say and thus, it really doesn’t matter to you if they say something you disagree with. In return, they won’t care what you an anonymous individual is saying anyway, thus, calling them an idiot would, at least to the more calm, reasoned reader, be somewhat inappropriate and worse still, a total waste of your time.

Having a contrary point of view is one thing, expressing that is fine, but pouring vitriol onto a writer on message boards and blogs is quite another.

I’m used to this by now – after 10 years of writing online its all so much water of a ducks back – I keep a duck handy for just such occasions, however, the reasons for it interest me greatly.

In my book We Ate All The Pies, I discussed this phenomena in terms of it being an extension of the old banter on the terraces; banter which ironically is less present than ever inside football grounds today.

Insulting the opposition is a well established football culture which I totally understand and I used to think that this is was an extension of that.

However, I think the modern culture of emotional Internet-based outpourings are evolving into something else; into a way of life almost.  There are keyboard warriors everywhere who love to give a volley of abuse to anyone who crosses their path. What do they get out of it?

Perhaps its a way to empower the essentially dis-empowered. Perhaps it gives people who express vitriol online a way to release all the negative emotions that build up in their regular lives; to lay off some of their self-loathing, anger and disasisfaxtion. Happy people wouldn’t do it, would they?

Here’s some bloke on the Internet expressing a view you think is wrong so you let him have it with both barrels in the full knowledge that unlike in any other walk of life the person you are insulting will not do anything about it. It’s a free hit.

However, being rude to people on the basis of their expressed taste in football from the loneliness of your own computer seems to be, in essence, a very sad thing. Should it really matter that much? It’s not like at a game when you can get caught up in the high drama and emotions of a match. This is all done in the cold light of day by people who are keen to assert their view as the one and only truth.

I find that very odd. I read lots of blogs and newspapers and it never occurs to me to write in to disagree with a point of view, let alone start calling them a moron. I can’t see what I’d gain by that.  Isn’t it really just a waste of your time? I can see why someone would contribute to a debate and express their own experiences. But if you pop over to F365 now, I’m guessing that you’ll read a lot more than that underneath my piece on Barca. I imagine I’ll have been accused of being the reason England never win at football – that’s a common one and my view on Barca will soon will be reduxed into being the reason behind all manner of sporting and social ills. Such is the hyperbole deployed on such Internet kick fests.

I’d like to think this happens to me because I’m good at writing stuff that makes people feel passionate, but the truth is almost everyone who writes online suffers from these occasional tirades of disproportionate and inappropriate savagings. I’m sure if Charles Dickens was writing online there’d be people posting ‘ more of the usual Dickens crap about the working class, f**k off Charlie we’re sick of you and your whining about poverty.’

I only raise this because it seems to go by without much comment any more. We’re all used to it on both sides of the fence – and discount it as all so much hot air – indeed I bet most people forget what they’ve written half an hour after posting it.  It’s such a disposable culture at core.

But possibly the worst thing about this culture is that it dilutes all the interesting thoughts and ideas; it puts off many who simply don’t want to wade through the slag-fest, reasoning they have better things to do with their life, and thus, the dissemination of insight, intelligence and interesting anecdote is actually hindered and suppressed by the domination of the loudest, must vulgar voice.

And if you don’t agree you must be a f**king moron!

Editor’s Note: Johnny’s new book: “We Ate All The Pies: How Football Swallowed Britain Whole” is available via Amazon US or Amazon UK.

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44 Responses to Barcelona Bore Me To Death

  1. sucka99 says:

    to each his own, as long as you appreciate what they do and how they do it and how they won 6 trophies on all levels a year ago doing it

  2. Bob says:

    Are you mad? Barcelona are amazing.

    All joking aside though, I find that I tend to agree with you. Whilst I find the technical mastery shown by Barcelona to be impressive, it can often lead to a one-sided match, almost a practice game of ‘keep ball’. If you then have no emotional engagement with either team, it can become slightly monotonous.

    Having said that, seeing Barca beat Real 5-0 was a ridiculously exciting and almost flawless display of football.

  3. trickybrkn says:

    problem with today’s media is that while it may be your opinion, so many publish just to get a reaction. So maybe you don’t like the ball on the floor and passing till you find the perfect angle to get the ball forward to present a 1 on 1… There is nothing wrong with that… and personally I wouldn’t fault you for a more physical dump and gun style. But we have been conditioned to the contrarian send up, that perhaps we the viewing public have become jaded.

  4. tonyspeed says:

    I like their passes in the final third, that mazing through-ball that magically finds the runner. I hate however, waiting 3 minutes to get to that point with a punch of short passes back and forth with have the effect of mesmerizing the opposition with boredom or tiring them to death. In essence Barcelona’s tactic is : convince the opponents brain you are content with doing nothing. Then after doing that do something brilliant and score. It makes for good reading while watching football, unless you of course enjoy watching football players practice drills and such…

  5. David G says:

    Maybe I’ll be the only one but I agree with you. Barcelona and by extension Spain are pretty boring, especially when you don’t have rooting intrest in them or their oppenents.

    For us American’s the best way I can describe Barcelona is that they’re like the 2001 Ravens if they had had an even better defense, and you subsituted Jamal Lewis for Barry Sanders (in his prime). Basically most other teams would struggle to score, and the game would be filled with three and outs, but two to three times a game Barry Sanders would produce WOW moments, like Messi or Villa do now. Other than those couple of plays the constant 3 yard runs into the line are mind numbing, just like the constant 3 foot passing of Barca.

    I’ll take the 99 Ram like Tottenham style of play (sans the occasional shutting down shop AC Milan game style) any day.

  6. MNUfan1991 says:

    Agreed. Watching paint dry is more exhilarating than the Spanish brand of football that Barcelona perfects.
    EPL may not have the technical prowess of the two teams at La Liga. I’ll take the speed of Nani and the bone-crunching tackles of Christopher Samba over those fancy passing any day.

  7. tonyspeed says:

    Now to comment on what you actually were talking about: The first problem is that vitriol and fandom are tied together. I think everyone wants to curse at the opposing teams fans. We don’t because we don’t want to make a public spectacle unless we are surrounded by like-minded hooligan-thugs.

    The second problem is aptly expressed by what people thought was a nonsense song: “are we human? or are we dancer?” People have been conditioned to prance around like ballerinas by what we would call pundits. Why do we believe Pele or Maradonna was the best? None of us have ever seen them play for longer than a few clip reels. So we turn of the brain and defer to the pundits. If I now say for instance, “Fabregas is the best player of all time,” a million close-brained pawns will jump down my throat about Pele and Maradonna.

    The same goes for politics. Why does the capitalist world in general hate communism so vehemently? Technically, nothing is wrong with communism in itself. The idea is to provide equally for all members of society. The few nations that have adopted communism have chosen to do so using a dictatorship and violent methods due to the strong powers that were in place to repress the idea of communal wealth. For instance, at the time China embraced communism, the European powers, America, and Japan were poised to carve it up like a turkey. They had crushed China’s imperial government, crushed the spirit of the people, and were benefiting from china’s resources. Then came world war 2 in which the Japanese ravaged China, killed, raped and pillaged, and treated the chinese as if they were dogs. When communism swept across Cuba, American companies were devouring Cuba’s resources at an unprecedented rate. They virtually owned the country and cubans were treated as outcasts in their own country. When painted from this light, one could write history as if the communists were freedom fighters. In much the same way, if George Washington and his other aristocratic seditionists had lost the war, the would have been painted as an evil uprising force that tried to sow disunity amongst the empire. But if I now say George Washington was just a rich,greedy man influencing poor men to die over a few six-pence, then everyone will just down my throat.

    From we are born, we are trained to believe what those with higher-knowledge tell us. Those so-called pundits train us to take their words as fact. They force propaganda down our throats to make us believe one way or style is superior to another. They spoon feed us like a mother feeds her son on her bosom, and no son would ever turn against her mother would they? Any conspiracy theories or dissenting voices are are ridiculous as a boy that raises his hand against his own innocent mother.

    So whether football or politics, we have all been fed the same porridge. It is all related, whether it be our views on barcelona or our views on muslims and islam. All are spoken as absolute truth by pundits with god-like knowledge.

    • trickybrkn says:

      True. Why I just can’t find it ever in me to say anything nice about Spurs.

    • Dave C says:

      my view on Barca will soon will be reduxed into being the reason behind all manner of sporting and social ills. Such is the hyperbole deployed on such Internet kick fests
      Ha, the digression into communism and politics is a perfect example of the above issue.

  8. jdoe says:

    I’m confused. Is this article about your thoughts on barca football or on how people are rude and don’t want you to have your own POV?

    Anyway, this statement – “We don’t all have to be the same, we take that for granted in life, don’t we?” – is enough to show why the barca/arsenal styles of football are much appreciated. Very few teams (if any) play the same brand of football. That alone make them beautiful!

    • SeminoleGunner says:

      Yeah, I was more excited to read about why Barca are boring than I was to read an examination of trends in internet insults.

      • The Gaffer says:

        The article includes a link to the piece John wrote about why Barcelona bores him to death. It’s at http://football365.com/john_nicholson/0,17033,8746,00.html

        Cheers,
        The Gaffer

        • SeminoleGunner says:

          Thanks for the link!

          I do enjoy Barcelona, but I also get what the author is saying. I suspect I might not be as charmed by Barcelona if I had to watch them week in and week out in La Liga.

        • raok says:

          @the Gaffer, one thing I’ve noticed in your site that, most of the articles are not logical, every time you come to the rescue of the writer. i am not saying particularly saying about this post, but go through some other posts as well, its way too one dimensional or silly like this one. yes, there are many interesting posts. so tell the other writers to do some sensible articles.
          what’s this post is about? Barcelona? definitely not. this is about internet insulting trend. I’am sure people don’t come here to read bout this nor about the juvenile discussion about players wasting the time after 90th min or trying to win a goal kick.

          • The Gaffer says:

            Raok, it’s a sensible article about a good topic that is of interest to many readers of football blogs such as this one. However, and this is my own fault, but the headline doesn’t match the story. It’s often hard to write a descriptive headline title in 8 words or less that perfectly sums up the story so people can understand what it’s about. I wrote the headline. John wrote the piece. I don’t think the headline matches well with what he wrote about, but that’s my fault.

            People have different tastes, so what may be a sensible article for you may not be a sensible article for someone else. We try to create a lot of variety and I believe we succeed there. Not everyone is going to like every post all the time, but we try to please readers as much as we can (while allowing the writers to submit articles on any topics of their choosing).

            Cheers,
            The Gaffer

  9. Zidave says:

    I feel very misled. You’re title implies this is an opinion article on Barcelona. Yet 3/4′s of this entire piece is discussing the idea of negative criticism. You don’t like Barcelona’s style, that’s fine, but please do explain. I opened this to read about soccer, now I feel like I wasted my time reading what I did.

  10. R2Dad says:

    All fans are allowed their opinions, but I find there is less and less rational analysis and more and more “you’re a w@nker” and “your team is crap”. When I see a thread with 400 posts I know 300 of them are from the same dozen people blathering back and forth about nothing. *yawn*. WRT Barca/Spain’s style, you can claim it is uninteresting and not physical enough, but results speak volumes. Technical ability is required to excel at the highest level, and England internationals have less quality on the ball than their Euro and SA opponents. England internationals in general have more quality on the ball than those on the USMNT, and thus play “better” (except for England keepers post-Seaman, who DO suck, relatively). So, you can have your cake, but not eat it, too. Lots of flying tackles all over the pitch might be fun for the fan to watch, but what it really demonstrates is poor fitness or poor positioning. Spanish play is clinical, precise and that’s why it shreds teams that like flying tackles and manly, physical play. Sorry it offends your sensibilities, but the teams that hoists the cup are the ones to which players, and fans, aspire.

  11. matt says:

    I think people found Germany the most exciting team in the World Cup because of their ability to blend passing and movement with a distinct intention of attacking the goal. Barca don’t attack – they wait.

    Somehow, Barcelona have been tabbed as the most beautiful team in the world, while having a far more laid-back attitude about attacking. I can only take so many 8-10 yard passes between Xavi and Iniesta until I get bored.

    I’m with the author of this post. Barca are boring. About time people said as much.

    • Anthony says:

      I completely agree with Matt.

      Not every attack needs to end with a highlight reel goal. The beautiful movement most of the time doesn’t amount to anything, not even a scoring chance. They also have an extreme adversion to crossing the ball and using any kind of aerial tactics.

      While I admire their superior skill, the game is still about winning . The style is the icing on the cake.

  12. Summary Guy says:

    Allow me to summarize:

    1. You don’t care for Barcelona’s style and prefer a faster, more direct, and more physical style. (10% of content)

    2. You expect lots of people to disagree and some to be jackasses about it, so you’d like us to know that you’re prepared for that feedback. (80% of content)

    3. We should buy your book. (10% of content)

  13. Efrain says:

    Okay, so the point is that Barca should play a different style that may or may not work for them? Winning is winning, they found a great style that suits them and gets them trophies. Why would a team change a winning style? I watch them each week, and yes, it almost gets boring as you pretty much know the result before the match begins…… a win. Nonetheless, their passing and ball control is beautiful, and I would rather see them win a “boring” game than lose a game with more physicality.

  14. Howard McLaren says:

    Football should stir the emotions like a last minute penalty in the World Cup Final. Personally I’d rather watch a Blackpool game than Barcelona any day. It’s not Barcelona’s fault that’s just how they play – clinical and boring (to me anyway). I’d rather see Messi display his considerable skills in a good old tussle at Blackpool. Long balls, never say die running, hard tackles, players running their socks off, plenty of goalmouth action and fans screaming intimidation a few feet from the pitch. Recipe for a great atmosphere and value for money rather than the sanitised stadiums of the big boys (just how much can you see from row Z at Barcelona or Man U eating a prawn sandwich?).

    I’ve been to many of the great grounds before they were demolished or revamped and sad to say except for the extra comfort (and obviously safety) the new ones drain your wallet but add nothing to the experience. Here’s hoping Crawley Town hold Utd to a draw Saturday and we see a real game at the replay.

  15. Jean-Christian says:

    The piece you’re writing for another website, presumably an opinion piece actually regarding football, is what should be published here. This post belongs on your Livejournal.

  16. El Tri 2014 says:

    Yes, everyone has their preferred brand of football.

    La Liga is the most exciting by far! With Barca at the top, extreme skill meets extreme execution.
    EPL is also exciting but there are quite a few more clubs that play 10 men behind the ball. That’s said, there’s always an oppurtunity to catch a good game even if both teams are close to being relegated.
    Serie A is fantastic if you like high energized and aggresive games.

    As for the Bundasliga, just have not watched enough to make an informed decision, so I’ll the Gaffer take a poke at this one.

  17. Guy bored at work says:

    What is today, pile on Barcelona day? I’m with Summary Guy on this. Anyone can write an I don’t like how article. I see what you did there… throw some red meat over at EPLtalk to lead people straight to football365.com. Genius!

  18. Dave C says:

    Unfortunately, the more viewers a website has, the lower the quality of the comments. I think this is due to 3 factors:
    (1) A certain proportion of the general population are attention seeking idiots. Thus, the larger the number of viewers, the larger the number of idiots.
    (2) The larger the number of viewers, the more it seems to attract attention seeking idiots (since more viewers = more possible attention), so the proportion of attention seeking idiots is even higher than in the general population.
    (3) Forced to compete with each other, the attention seeking idiots resort to increasingly stupid levels of behaviour.

    Personally, that’s why I kind of like this website – the viewership is (no offence) relatively small, so you don’t feel like you’re just trying to shout in a room full of idiots, and you can have half-sensible discussion.

    As for the Barcelona issue…personally I agree it can be boring, but mainly because the other teams simply can’t match up to them. It’s hardly their fault. And as for not having a “Plan B” (mentioned in your F365 article but not explicitly here) – firstly, they hardly ever need one. Secondly, they tried to have one with Zlatan but it didn’t really work.

    Also, to take this a little further: in your F365 article you mentioned how Barca didn’t have a plan B to fall back on, and continued with the same approach even in the dying minutes of the Arsenal game, despite being 2-1 down. Can I suggest this was because they realize there is still another 90 mins left, and losing 2-1 at Highbury was actually a pretty good result for them (i.e. they have the away goal, and only need to win 1-0 at Nou Camp to proceed), so they had no urgent need to gamble on some plan B in search for another goal.

    • The Gaffer says:

      Dave C, no offense taken, but the site does quite well in terms of visitors per month. We have over 300,000 unique visitors per month, but the vast majority of them read the articles but don’t comment. Meanwhile, behind the scenes, I do my best job to moderate the comments each day so there are intelligent conversations happening in the comments thread. Plus, because EPL Talk launched in 2005, we’ve done quite well to cultivate a community whereby our comments section is known for having more intelligent debate than some of the sites out there that fall into flame wars.

      Cheers,
      The Gaffer

      • Dave C says:

        (apologies if this posts twice, I think I’m having a computer glitch)

        Yeah no worries, I didn’t mean that as a put-down of the website. It’s great that the site is doing well, and it’s only normal that only a small proportion of viewers actually comment on things. Personally I just enjoy the fact that there is only a relatively small number of commentors, because I like being able to get a sample of differing viewpoints without having to wade through pages upon pages of comments such as “Manchesta iz da best” “Chlsea sux innit” etc etc, which you get on the more well-known sites.

        • The Gaffer says:

          You’re absolutely correct. It drives me nuts when I read comments from people on sites where they’re submitting comments in the form of text messages. Text messaging is for phones, not for bloody comments sections on websites! BTW, Swanzea iz da best! ;)

          Cheers,
          The Gaffer

  19. Xtcied says:

    Who cares about what your ideal watch is or isn’t?

  20. Joe says:

    I do and don’t agree. Watching Barcelona play in the Champions League against Panathinaikos, I was struck by the fact that Barca had the ball so much that it was like Panathinaikos didn’t even play. It felt like I was being deprived of the chance to watch a team I had never seen before, because they essentially weren’t even playing. But when Barcelona gets that passing game going, like they did for about ten minutes last night in the first half, I find it thrilling to watch. The kind of reflexive communication they’ve built over years of playing together can be astonishing to watch, and that is why I make it a point to try to watch them at least once a month, even with a number of boring technical clunkers left in their wake.

  21. Dave see says:

    Agree fully with the author. Watching the highlights (free on goltv’s website by the way) is fantastic–watching the full game is not–I’ll stick with the EPL and Bundesliga there. It was the same in the World Cup with Spain. I’m with Matt–Germany is most exciting international team right now. Really hope they are rewarded in one of the next tournaments for playing such positive football.

  22. Steele says:

    I was frustrated when I saw the title of the article, but I was more frustrated when I realized it wasn’t even a well constructed article about why you thought barcelona was boring. I would at least respect that. It’s a Poor Me article. You’ll probably read this post and say, “that’s exactly what I’m referring to”…but jog on, at least make a point. I’m and English football fan first and foremost…but the hell Arsenal is going to go through in the second leg will be amazing to watch. Still cheering for the Gunners. Please….after the second leg don’t write an article reeking of self pity and write something that has to do with the game. Cheers!

  23. MadShanks says:

    I must agree slightly with Steele in his comment above. I was very interested in reading your take on Barcelona only to find that the majority of this article was written about moronic/thoughtless comments that tend to usually be written about articles of contrasting views. I wish you spoke more about your reasoning behind why Barcelona’s style of play has bored you. For that reason alone your article should be renamed but with that said….on to Barcelona.

    I agree at times watching Barcelona can become a bit monotonous, but that doesn’t take away from how intelligent their brand of football is (which I believe you agreed with in your article, slightly). If you watched the Arsenal game closely, everytime one of their midfielders had the ball, three triangular options were formed around them as passing options. This allowed them to play that tic tac football that frustrates many sides and allows them to apply the cruise control in many matches. This same triangular formation is also applied on defense when they apply constant and synced pressure on any ball carrier in the midfield. This must be commended as a tactical brilliance that not many teams have the vision and talent to perform to the level of perfection that they seem to produce week in and week out. But in my opinion, the major reason why most matches involving them are boring is because the opposition bows down and don’t give them a go in the correct manner. Arsenal showed their ability to expose them by not sitting and trying to hold them back but rather press them at every counter attack possible. If more sides applied a more attacking style against them while maintaining their shape defensively, more games would be more entertaining. I understand this is easier said than done, but most teams would love to just settle for the point/draw than attack and take a shot at winning in fear of being dominated.

  24. TheHatter says:

    The problem is that now Barcelona have lost all the haters come crawling out of the woodwork. If you had posted these thoughts a few months ago you would probably have gotten less of a backlash, sure you would have gotten the odd negative comment, but unfortunately as with most opinion pieces it is the timing of them that often provokes the response.

    You posted this at a time when it is cool and trendy for English fans to pour scorn and laugh at Barcelona. As a neutral over the past day or so I have gotten tired of the nonsense spread by many fans and the media alike. People seem to have forgotten it was the first leg of a two legged tie, that Arsenal scraped a victory, that Arsenal did not ‘thoroughly outplay’ Barcelona. If you listened to some you’d get the impression Arsenal are not only through this game but 3-0 up with 5 mins to go in the CL final, its tiresome.

    But yes, its all about tiring. To me it looks like you just posted that article as someone else said above, to simply cause controversy. Reading it it isn’t so much an opinion piece as a mindless Kevin Keagan-esque “I’d love it if we beat them!” rant.

    I disagree that Barcelona’s style of play is one dimensional, as someone who has watched all of their games for the past 4-5 years I often see a scrappy side of them that is often forgotten. They hassle they harry, they kick, they scrap as much as most teams, its just when they have the ball they don’t hoof it up to that guy who has got a ‘good touch for a big man’

    But, opinions are like assholes, as they say…personally I just want this bandwagon hate to stop.

  25. raok says:

    Lol. Manj,you are a f***ing moron. All through this article you were moaning about what other people say. Do One thing, remove the comments section from this post coz no one’s gonna give a f@@king sh!t about this article or you.

  26. Dave C says:

    Gaffer – can I make a suggestion? I think that as often as possible, you should encourage the author of the piece to join in the debate that follows in the comments? I know some do this (obviously yourself, but also Earl Reed, Jesse Chula and others), but I tend to find that after articles that have been heavily criticized, the authors seem to offer very little (if any) defence of their viewpoint.

    I’m thinking specifically of Lauren’s bizzarro write-up of the Newcastle-Arsenal game, and the article about Man Utd players guarding the ball in the corner or having their feet in the wrong place at kick-off, and this one (although obviously the problem here was more due to the misleading headline than the article itself). I mean I don’t want the authors feel like they’re being interrogated or being made to answer to their loyal subjects, but at the same time I think it would be more interesting than simply having you come on here to defend them on their behalf.

    • The Gaffer says:

      Dave C, I wholeheartedly agree with you, but it’s not something I can force on writers. I can encourage them to respond to comments, but at the end of the day, it’s completely up to them. Some writers like to respond. Others prefer to stay away.

      Cheers,
      The Gaffer

      • Dave C says:

        No worries – if I had written that article about Newcastle-Arsenal, I would probably have bought myself a one way ticket to an isolated island in the pacific somewhere, never to be seen or heard from again.

  27. SoccerLimey says:

    Wholeheartedly 100% agree. I felt the same way about the Spain team in South africa. Great technique and control both on and off the ball. Probably the “best” team we’ve seen for generations, but I was totally bored by them. It was like watching Tiger Woods play golf with a 10 shot lead. No excitement.

  28. ron367 says:

    Barca have to take time out to make hundreds of passes because of the effort closing opposing players down. They actually sprint to close down. To prevent the ball being passed across the back they will close down 3 players at once even if they haven’t the ball. So by the time the pass reaches it’s target, Barca players are in a position to make a tackle. They need to rest, so do it by holding the ball which seems like hours, yes very boring. Give me Chelsea 3 Arsenal 5 anytime.

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