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Steven Cohen Blames Liverpool Fans For Hillsborough Disaster

steven cohen Steven Cohen Blames Liverpool Fans For Hillsborough Disaster

Steven Cohen, co-host of the World Soccer Daily radio show, has been at it again.

While the rest of the world last week was paying tribute to the 20th anniversary of the Hillsborough Tragedy, Cohen was complaining on his U.S. radio show that Liverpool fans failed to take responsibility for Hillsborough as well as claiming that if 6,000-8,000 ticketless fans had not shown up, the Hillsborough Disaster would never have happened.

The problem is, he’s wrong. Dead wrong.

Steven Cohen’s Statements About the Hillsborough Disaster

So what did Cohen say that was so wrong? Here are three statements that Cohen made about the Hillsborough Disaster on his Monday, April 13, 2009 episode of World Soccer Daily (note, you can listen to the entire audio clip at the bottom of this post):

“People showing up without ticket, hell bent in getting into somewhere where they shouldn’t be going because they don’t have tickets, is the root cause of [the Hillsborough Disaster].”

“I’m yet to read anybody write in this weekend’s Sunday papers in England, where they’re all doing big commemorations about the 96, and why we should never forget and how it’s changed the game, nobody discusses the 6-8,000 who showed up without tickets and my argument has always been, if those people don’t show up, this never happens.”

“[Hillsborough] is a stadium that week-in week-out, Sheffield Wednesday used without incident.”

World Soccer Daily Playing With Fire

Hosted by Steven Cohen and Kenny Hassan, the Los Angeles-based show is broadcast nationwide each weekday on Sirius Satellite Radio and also available as a daily podcast, which is one of the top 10 most popular sports podcasts on iTunes.

Without a doubt, Cohen is the voice of soccer in America. Since the launch of his network in May 2002, Cohen has succeeded in growing World Soccer Daily into the must-listen show about soccer in the United States. Coupled with his weekly co-host slot on Fox Soccer Channel’s Fox Football Fone-In show, 46-year-old Cohen has built a sizeable following, many of whom are impressionable fans who are relatively new to the sport and hang on his every word.

That’s fine when it’s fun and games, but when Cohen (a Chelsea supporter) spews out misinformation about the Hillsborough Disaster, it’s dangerous. One, because his beliefs about Hillsborough are completely wrong. And two, because by making his beliefs public, he’s giving many newbie soccer fans false information and thereby spreading the wrong information about the cause of the disaster. With such a large audience on radio and television, he has a responsibility to educate listeners on what really happened on April 15, 1989.

The Facts About The Hillsborough Tragedy

To dispel his myths, here are the facts:

“The immediate cause of the gross overcrowding and hence the disaster was the failure, when gate C was opened, to cut off access to the central pens which were already overfull,” — The Interim Taylor Report, paragraph 265.

“Planning apart, however, it should have been clear in the control room where there was a view of the pens and of the crowd at the turnstiles that the tunnel had to be closed. If orders had been given to that effect when gate C was opened, the fans could have been directed to the empty areas of the wings and this disaster could still have been avoided. Failure to give that order was a blunder of the first magnitude,” — The Interim Taylor Report, paragraph 231.

“I have already found that there was not an abnormally large number of fans without tickets on this occasion. With one or two exceptions, the police witnesses themselves did not subscribe to the ‘conspiracy’ theory (of a large number of late-arriving ticketless supporters). I am satisfied that the large concentration at Leppings Lane from 2.30 pm to 2.50 pm did not arrive as a result of any concerted plan. There were, I accept, small groups without tickets who were willing to exploit any adventitious chance of getting into the ground. They, together with the minority who had drunk too much, certainly aggravated the problem faced by the police. But that main problem was simply one of large numbers packed into the small area outside the turnstiles,” The Interim Taylor Report, paragraph 208.

“The police witnesses who most impressed me did not consider the number of ticketless fans to be inordinately large. This accords with two other sources of evidence,” The Interim Taylor Report, paragraph 200.

“Sheffield Wednesday FC’s own admission count system showed the terrace did not exceed its 10,100 capacity (for the Leppings Lane end). As part of their analysis, the Health and Safety Executive (HSE) counted the number of [Liverpool] supporters entering the ground, including those through the turnstiles, through Gate C and even those who climbed over the turnstiles. They gave three admission figures based on their analysis. Their first figure was 9,267, their ‘best estimate’ was 9,734, and their third figure was a ‘maximum estimate’ of 10,124. The HSE report stated it was unlikely that the terrace exceeded 10,124 and that total admissions were approximately equal to the designated capacity of 10,100 people. Taylor surmised there was no substance to the allegation that ticketless fans caused the Disaster,” The Hillsborough Football Disaster: Context And Consequences, page 17. Also watch video evidence of the fans walking through the turnstiles and walking into the tunnel.

The Taylor Report exonerated the Liverpool fans of any culpability. “The main reason for the disaster was the failure of police control,” The Interim Taylor Report, paragraph 278.

Leppings Lane stand was deemed unsuitable in 1981 after 38 Spurs fans suffered crush related injuries. Sheffield Wednesday never carried out the work required. In addition to the 1981 incident, crushes also occurred at Hillsborough in 1987 and 1988. In fact Liverpool played Nottingham Forest in the same stage of the tournament one year prior at the same ground where Liverpool fans were crushed. Liverpool filed an official complaint prior to the 1989 FA-Cup semi final to air their concerns about safety.

Cohen was absolutely wrong on his April 13th show regarding the statements he made about the Hillsborough Tragedy. There were not, as he claimed, 6,000-8,000 ticketless fans. Cohen was emphatically wrong when he claimed that Sheffield Wednesday’s Hillsborough Stadium was used week-in week-out without incident. And the reason none of the English newspapers last Sunday discussed the “6-8,000 who showed up without tickets” is because they didn’t exist. The vast majority of English journalists and pundits know better because they’ve taken time to study the facts rather than to believe the lies told by The Sun and the South Yorkshire Police.

Sure, there were a very small minority of ticketless fans at the ground. And sure, some of the supporters were drunken (as at any football game or sporting event), but the fact of the matter is that Cohen is living in the 80s with the inaccurate statements he’s spewing out.

The Liverpool supporters were a victim of a combination of mistakes by the South Yorkshire Police (for failing to notice that the central pen was overcrowded while the pens to the left and right had room for more spectators, as well as not directing the Liverpool fans who came through the turnstiles away from the central pen), Sheffield Wednesday Football Club (Leppings Lane was ill-suited to admit the 10,100 fans, had too few turnstiles and the club failed to fix those and other issues between 1981-1989 even though they were well aware of them) and the Football Association (for deciding to play the semi-final match at Hillsborough despite previous crushing incidents).

Cohen’s History of Blaming Liverpool Fans For Hillsborough

Cohen’s comments last week aren’t the first time he’s created controversy on American airwaves regarding Hillsborough. On December 5, 2006, he appeared on the Fox Football Fone-In TV show on the U.S. network Fox Soccer Channel and claimed that Liverpool fans were responsible for Hillsborough. He then apologized on the December 12 episode of Fox Football Fone-In, but the damage was clearly already done.

In April, 2007, he again blamed the Liverpool fans for causing the Hillsborough Disaster, this time on his radio show.

He may have apologized on Fox Football Fone-In December 12, 2006, but his views haven’t changed one iota — rendering his 2006 apology virtually meaningless.

Comparisons to Kelvin MacKenzie

Cohen’s misinformed views about what caused the Hillsborough Disaster are similar in context to those of Kelvin MacKenzie.

On April 19, 1989, MacKenzie, the former editor of The Sun newspaper published a sensationalized account of what happened at Hillsborough. MacKenzie’s newspaper that day alleged that ticketless and drunken Liverpool F.C. fans were responsible for the disaster, having supposedly tried to fight their way into the stadium by rushing the turnstiles and attacking policemen outside the ground.

It’s taken 20 years of education in the United Kingdom to try to get the public to understand what was the real cause of the Hillsborough Disaster.

Then in November 2006, just days before Cohen said basically the same thing, MacKenzie again claimed that drunken Liverpool fans caused the disaster.

“I’m still reading the same old stuff about who’s responsible. And it’s the police, it’s the stadium, it’s whatever,” said Cohen in the April 13 radio episode. Cohen then inferred that the Liverpool fans don’t take responsibility for their own actions regarding the events that led up to the Hillsborough Tragedy. Despite his December, 2006 apology, he obviously hasn’t changed his controversial beliefs and he continues to appear on the Fox Football Fone-In show week-in week out.

It’s fitting that on the April 13 episode of the Fox show, it was co-host Nick Webster who paid tribute to the 20th anniversary of the Hillsborough Disaster in a pre-recorded segment at the end of the show. Cohen wasn’t included.

Conclusion

Twenty years after the Hillsborough Disaster, we’re still hearing the same old lies about what happened on that fateful day. It’s time for people to educate themselves about what really happened and stand up against those who fabricate misinformation. For our current generation and future generations, we owe it to them and the 96 who died to tell the real truth of what transpired in Sheffield on April 15, 1989.

To learn more about what really happened at the Hillsborough Disaster, read the Interim Taylor Report, and visit the Hillsborough Football Disaster and Hillsborough Justice Campaign websites.

Also, read the follow-up article to this one entitled Steven Cohen Offers Liverpool Fans No Hillsborough Apology.

UPDATE: On May 18, 2009, Steven Cohen apologized on World Soccer Daily for his unfortunate and inaccurate statements he made about the Hillsborough Disaster.

UPDATE 2: The comments regarding the Steven Cohen controversy have been closed. It’s time to return the discussion to football.

UPDATE 3: Fox Soccer Channel announced on July 29, 2009 that Steven Cohen’s position on Fox Football Fone-In has been filled by Eric Wynalda.

UPDATE 4: Steven Cohen announced on August 21, 2009 that his World Soccer Daily show that day would be his last.

This entry was posted in Leagues: EPL, Liverpool and tagged , , , . Bookmark the permalink.

About Christopher Harris

Founder and publisher of World Soccer Talk, Christopher Harris is the managing editor of the site. He has been interviewed by The New York Times, The Guardian and several other publications. Plus he has made appearances on NPR, BBC World, CBC, BBC Five Live, talkSPORT and beIN SPORT. Harris, who has lived in Florida since 1984, has supported Swansea City since 1979. He's also an expert on soccer in South Florida, and got engaged during half-time of a MLS game. Harris launched EPL Talk in 2005, which was rebranded as World Soccer Talk in 2013.
View all posts by Christopher Harris →

335 Responses to Steven Cohen Blames Liverpool Fans For Hillsborough Disaster

  1. Dome says:

    He’s stands by his beliefs and views of Liverpudlians in a bad light. Whilst most pundits or journalists would let their feelings known about their dislike for a certain football club, he takes his obsession of Liverpool to a new high. He did once wear a t-shirt with the print proclaiming his “hud-caps off his car where robbed at Anfield” or something similar on a live show last year. There’s just no point in correcting or defending him. A leopard never changes his spots.

    Cohen probably blames Liverpool FC for causing the Recession and Global warming too, the sort of character he is.

  2. Matt says:

    Of course there is a point in correcting Cohen. His views are not only ignorant and ill-informed, they are lacking in the slightest shred of human decency. To most right-thinking people the death of 96 innocent men, women and children at a football match transcends club rivalries – particularly since the true causes (if not individual culpability) of the disaster have been well-documented for nigh on two decades. His views and prejudices are an unforgivable insult to those affected, to decent people everywhere and to his own listeners.

  3. Dicky says:

    Ignorance is bliss, isnt it ? ?

  4. Kent says:

    Cohen is a buffon and needs to be called out, particularly because of where his show is aired. Cohen is broadcasting to an American audience who maybe only somewhat familiar with Hillsborough or hearing about it for the first time while watching/listening to him. The lack of mainstream soccer coverage in the US means that Cohen becomes a large voice and has a greater impact. His mistruths and bias can more easily influence unknowing listeners. Not everyone will seek out the good reporting on such a story and will simply buy into the crazy English/Liverpool fans caused the problems myth. How can Cohen look at the images of that day and blame the fans?

  5. Patrick says:

    That phone in show was the worst piece of broadcasting I have ever watched. 12 year olds calling up asking if Man U should bring back Becks etc.

    How anyone can blame anyone but he police and the way fans where treated back then is beyond me. Having been at games back when you where cattle and had the surge forward and back, I can say that this event was a long time coming.

    The positive that can be taken from this disaster is that you no longer need fear for your life going to a football match. That and the filth where exposed for the backward corrupt bunch they where.

  6. Hannah says:

    These misconceptions, or just pure ignorance, need correcting before a new generation of fans believe these lies.

  7. dudleyjason says:

    What a complete imbecile this character is.

    His employers should look very carefully at what this tool has said and decide where they stand. Are they Pro ‘Shock Jock’ or Pro TRUTH???

  8. peter says:

    this man is an idiot, surely someone in his position should know the facts.

    unfortnately a few people will believe this rubbish and take his word as gospel.

    to make the same mistake over and over just shows how ignorant this man is

  9. John says:

    It is unforgivable that such inaccuracies are voiced about such a well documented event.

    I’m sure that if such derogatory comments were made on the basis of race or religion there would be a not-to-be-unexpected outcry.

    Mr Cohen and WSD must not be allowed to get away with the distribution of such appalling misinformation.

  10. Matt says:

    Steven Cohen is a disgrace and epitomises everything that is wrong with Chelsea fans and coverage of soccer in the States – poorly informed and his bosses will do nothing to stop him because they are wimps.

    Disgrace.

  11. bob says:

    Mr Cohen look at the facts they are readily available to all and as a Journalist (sic) you should find them easier than most, so how about this “6 million jews caused there own death it had nothing to do with Hitler, Mengle,etc they caused it all themselves” that last statment is a pile of rubbish and we all know it to be rubbish no research just a bigoted opion, so before you make anymore damning and bigoted statements please research, you have had twenty years to do it, yet you havnt maybe you do not like the facts maybe they do not suit your twisted agenda

  12. Dave smith says:

    What an ignorant missinformed Chelsea t—-r

  13. ChrissMari says:

    where’s the pictures of him in his arsenal shirt?

  14. pete breen says:

    Dear Sir What a sad person you really must be to try and drag an already disproved rant out of the toilet that you must dwell in . These sad rants av been disproved by countless evidence and the Taylor Report. I can just imagine you walkin to ur sad radio station with the Scum hanging out of ur back pocket . Your station must of had a real sad life to be blessed with the likes of you !!!!

  15. Grant Freer says:

    I wrote to Steve Cohen earlier this morning and would like to share with everyone the contents of my email to him, along with the vitriolic reply that i received shortly thereafter which I feel all the readers should be aware of:

    Attention Steven Cohen:

    Mr. Cohen,

    Your comments on WSD on April 13th, 2009 are disgraceful.

    Your assertion that the Hillsborough Disaster in 1989 was due to 6,000-8,000 Liverpool Fans without tickets is outrageous and typifies the type of sheer reckless unsubstantiated and uninformed statements that Kelvin MacKenzie also spouted in The Sun Newspaper in England 20 years ago. Have you even read the Taylor Report? Were you even in attendance that Fateful April Day? I was Mr. Cohen, and I, along with thousands of others, take offence to your ignorance. To use your public forum to vent your own misguided beliefs that have no basis of fact and serve only to air your inflated ego and fill the minds of young impressionable soccer fans in America is even more disturbing. Was it not bad enough that you had to apologize for your long-held beliefs the first time you verbalized your “Conspiracy Theory” in 2006? Not only are your comments and long-held misplaced beliefs a disgrace to the families directly affected by the disaster, as well as the rest of us that will never forget what happened that day 20 years ago, but your professionalism and objectivity (or lack thereof) further call in to question your self-inflated reputation as being some sort of authority on soccer here, especially here in the United States, where for reasons unbeknown to me, someone actually thinks you warrant having a microphone and an audience. You are in the wrong Mr. Cohen. Ordinarily a sincere apology would be appropriate, but that’s a road you have traveled down before and it clearly hasn’t changed your perspective one iota.

    If you would like to actually speak with someone who was there that day, please give me a call here in Florida and I would be only too pleased to give you an informed eye-witness first hand account. Not that i think for one minute that would, nor do i think that you have any desire whatsover to understand and become informed of the facts, which are well documented.

    Grant Freer
    Boca Raton, Florida

    The reply I received from Steve Cohen rather quickly was as follows:

    “No i am not and you should consider the facts. Liverpool are at the center of almost every serious human violation of conduct. Hysel, Hillsbrough, Alan Smityh, Singing about Munich 58, throwing shit on United fans at Anfield, Michael Shields…are you seriously telling me that you are not guilty of any of this.

    2 events
    4 years
    2 different cities
    2 different countries
    2 different stadium

    135 dead

    Only common link….well have a guess.

    This not meant as disrespect for the 96 or their famalies but Justice…waht justice are you looking for…to be relieved of the shame and guilt and if you can get the South Yorkshire police to admit something juust to get you off their backs…that is what you are talking about.”

    Cheers,
    Steven.

    Thanks for listening to World Soccer Daily

    1-866-925-8255

    WSD@worldsoccerdaily.com

  16. fsquid says:

    I guess someone should have pointed this out to Trevor Hicks before he told Sky that Liverpool supporters have to share some of the blame..

  17. Paul says:

    Having been to Athens and many European Liverpool games there are so called fans that try to get into the ground at any cost most fuelled by alcohol!

    Having said that this is the reckless minority and it is the police job to weed out the troublemakers/create crowd control!!!

  18. Matt says:

    fsquid – when did Trevor Hicks say that you ball bag? He lost both his daughters at Hillsborough. Were they to blame? Idiotic comment

  19. fsquid says:

    Trevor said it last Tuesday.

  20. GBH says:

    I have a few points to make as I know the family of a lad that dies at Hillsborough.

    Firstly the guy certainly has a face for radio.
    Secondly he has got the attention he craved.
    Thirdly what goes around comes around so he’ll probably end up with a tumour.
    Fourthly I wonder whether people like him ever stop to think about the death and misery their own countrymen cause?
    I know a few Chelsea fans and whilst they couldn’t generate an atmosphere anything close to that found in a library they are usually fairly decent people (apart from those that hunt heads) so it is quite rude to describe him as one.

    I think he should stick to burgers, watching athletes on steroids and being a long-distance “saccer” ‘fan’.

  21. Matt says:

    fsquid – when on Tuesday? At the memorial service? You’ve either misunderstood him or misheard him because if he had said that, or anything like that, there would have been uproar in Liverpool.

  22. Colso says:

    Funny how short a memory these new Chelsea fans have. Don’t forget that their notorious hardcore element Chelsea Headhunters were for the longest time the scourge of football and society in general. http://macintyre.com/content/view/62/105/ This of course was pre-Abramovich and therefore isn’t to be associated with their glorious 6 year history and I’m sure they’ve all gone away now that the club has been sanitised, right?

  23. I’m not taking sides in this issue, but Alan Green on the BBC which many probably love on this site takes his hatred of a manager and club to an extreme also.

    Passion and half truths, bad reporting seem to be a staple of the UK based football media. As someone who follows world football I find more objectionable and wholly inaccurate things in UK papers than anywhere else.

    So for some of you to pretend it’s just Steven Cohen or just in the US is flat wrong. Clearly Steven Cohen does not like Liverpool. That’s an established fact that he doesn’t hide. Again I am not weighing in on this Hillsborough issue. I have previously posted my tribute to Hillsborough’s 96 victims on another site and have stated I regularly disagree with Mr. Cohen on a host of issues.

    But for some to act like this is some sort of isolated case of pundit bias shows your shortsightedness. At least Cohen appears as an opinionated radio host. Real “journalists” and writers in the UK covering football often times end up simply as uninformed gossip mongers and very biased. Moreover, they don’t attempt to learn the facts or understand the world game. To me they are much much worse than Steven Cohen could ever be.

    Cheers,

    Kartik

  24. kirker says:

    he is a yank and a prick who knows nothing about football or in his case soccer only sad ignorant ppl like him wud blame liverpool fans everybody in the whole of britain know that the yorkshire police are to blame. him sayin all of those things is an insult to the 96 and every other liverpool fan that was there that day

    JUSTICE FOR THE 96 YOU’LL NEVER WALK ALONE

  25. LS says:

    Excellent article Gaffer. Cohen seems to have some hatred of Liverpool that makes him spew these outrageous comments. Makes you wonder if Fox Soccer Channel should be considered the biased, tabloid-esque equivalent of Fox News?

  26. fsquid says:

    Matt-

    Not at the memorial service, that was on Wednesday. It was a sit down interview and he said that Liverpool supporters had the responsibility of behaving, but the interviewer didn’t push for him to be more specific.

  27. Andy Goldberg says:

    This pointless twat say probably say that Jews were responsible for the holocaust given his lack of logic and bizarre argument.

  28. Matt says:

    fsquid – you have misunderstood. That comment was not a reference to the cause of events at Hillsborough.

    It was a reference to the fact that 20 years (officially a generation) have passed since Hillsborough, and a lot of younger fans have come into the game since then. He said that it is up to the older fans to set an example and ensure that the vast majority continue to behave well at football matches. As I said, it was not a direct reference to Hillsborough, though I can see why you might think it was, given the context.

    If you want to find out more about the causes and consequences of the disaster, visit hfdinfo.com

  29. lainey says:

    for cohen read c**t

  30. lainey says:

    charley uniform november tango

  31. josh says:

    brilliantly written. JFT 96

  32. Kate says:

    While I agree that this man needs to be put right on the facts of that day really this is the second time now after he was forced to say sorry the first time when facts were pointed out to him and his employer now this shows that he is not interested in facts when being a BIGGOTED LIAR are much better for me this man should be sacked if he cannot read or do research before he opens his mouth he should be on tv or radio just goes to show how little certain parts of the us still don’t get football

  33. forever LFC says:

    Cohan you prick, It is the job of the police to control crowds hence the term “policing a crowd”. Have you even read the Taylor Report? No didn’t think so. All this from a person who doesn’t have the faintest idea how the system is mean’t to work in the UK. Your personal views and opinions no matter what should be put to one side when reporting, focusing on facts is what separates great journalists from shit like you. It was people like you, ill informed, liars and ignorant to the truth that caused a war in Iraq. Do you really think we are that naive, to trust something someone like you says. Some people crave attention even if it is a backlash to something they say. You fit the bill.

  34. stephen q says:

    This person is a real lowlife. In his position he has a morale responsibility get know the facts. His opinion can influence thousands of people who may take his comments as the truth. His version of the truth is about as real as Kelvin Mckenzie’s

  35. Colm says:

    Your a despicable human being Cohen

  36. FSJ says:

    I do not know Steven Cohen. I do not listen to his show anymore as I work when it is on. I do not agree with his comments. I just thought I would correct some mistakes being made in this comments section.

    Steven Cohen is in fact English not a “Yank” as someone put it earlier. He is from London. Also, he is Jewish so I doubt your reductio ad absurdum about the Holocaust really works. (not that it ever does)

    Liverpool supporters (and others WBA, etc etc) who sing songs about Munich are despicable. As are United fans and others who sing about Hillsborough and Heysel etc etc. Every club has this element which is unfortunate. Cohen is obviously misinformed so I encourage you all to continue to email him and call his show telling him your views and hopefully he will change his opinion.

  37. AtlantaPompey says:

    Have you ever listened to any opinionated radio host and agreed with everything they said? Me neither. Steven has plenty of things wrong about him, his hatred and blame for Liverpool is just one of them. I listen to his show because it’s informative. They have many guests such as Tim Vickery and Graham Poll who will tell you exactly what they think and what is going on all over the world. Both of them (Steven & Kenny) can be real annoying at times. They constantly interrupt each other. I don’t believe they ever discuss what questions they are going to ask their guests. They are clearly not on the same page at times.

    Every club has people that you wouldn’t want to be associated with. You can’t blame everyone for the actions of a few. Even if that few is, in Steven’s opinion, thousands. That, to me, is exactly the same as blaming all Jews for the actions of a few, or all Germans for the actions of a few, or all Conservatives for the actions of a few. Wrong in every case.

    I’ll get off my soapbox now.

  38. tony f says:

    even the picture of this gobshite makes me feel sick.

    Cohen – you are an ugly hate filled monster, i can only hope you dont have children, for their sake, i can only imagine the pure shame that they would face everyday knowing that they have pondscum like you for a father.

  39. tracey says:

    fsquid has a career in tabloid journalism with that sort of twisting of comments..

    Kartik Krishnaiyer , to compare Alan Green’s highly opinionated comments with those of this lying, slanderous d**khead is like comparing a slap with homicide.

    I wish someone would censor the racist comments on here btw.

  40. jhill says:

    Wow at some of the comments here, to have a tumor?
    I don’t know much about the Hillsbourough incident, and it’s already been pointed out that Cohen did get some facts wrong, but the hatred and venom elicited here, really show how classless you fans are as well.
    Two wrongs don’t make a right, the correct way is to point out the mistakes made, but not what’s been said here.
    Take off the blinders and read what’s been posted, what’s been said here is just as wrong, as what Cohen said.

  41. paul says:

    Steven Cohen is clearly one very silly c**t!

  42. Samir S says:

    Here’s his contact information:

    Email address: steven@worldsoccerdaily.com

  43. todd says:

    cohen is a great entertainer, smart businessman, and a football fan. his show is fun and some days i find myself agreeing with him, other days i have to turn it off cause he is so wrong. but its a show, and the reactions ive skimmed over here are so typical of liverpool fans. they deserve everything he says, and plenty more. until they realize that their self promotion is the reason for the hatred from the likes of cohen, they will continue to ensure the treatment is kept up.

    having said all that, the facts are disputable. having a different take on history is nothing new and anyone who tries to tell you the “facts” about a historical event, rejecting any other possible theories is not giving the whole story. i dont care if you watched something happen with your own eyes, its important to have perspective with history. if he is wrong on the actual numbers, then that may be proven, but the sentiment cannot be ignored simply because popular opinion rejects it

  44. Alan Grant says:

    Steven Cohen is a dangerous individual, spouting lies about Liverpool and the Hillsborough disaster. If he doesn’t watch his step, he will find himself in deep trouble. Legally, he can/should be sued for the lies he has spouted.
    He must be one of the lowest human beings on the planet!

  45. John says:

    I think you’re embellishing his influence…

    Fox Soccer Channel has yet to post one-tenth of a national ratings point in their history. Their highest coverage area rating was a 0.4 (four-tenths of one percent of FSC’s distribution) for a Man U-Chelsea match. The highest rated Fox Football Fone-in of all-time was a 0.1 coverage area rating (one-tenth of one percent of FSC’s distribution).

    Likewise, WSD may be on the top 10 of downloads, but it reaches less than 100,000 people (on average). That wouldn’t get them in the top 50 in Los Angeles radio, let alone the country.

  46. Mike Humphrey. says:

    Sent today……………………

    ——————————————————————————————

    It’s quite sad really. North Americans have struggled for decades to overcome the perception that they are ‘johnny come lately’ soccerettes that haven’t got much of a clue regarding the beautiful game.

    Thankfully that myth has generally been exposed as being unfair and patently untrue.

    Then along comes Mr Cohen with his thinly veiled bitterness and an ignorance that only the truly moronic can display so eagerly.

    Try reading a few accounts of what really happened before you feel the urge to spout your next stream of bile Mr Cohen.

    I recommend The Day Of The Hillsborough Disaster, A Narrative Account” by Rogan Taylor, Andrew Ward and Tim Newburn, or “Hillsborough, The Truth” by Phil Scaton. You might find the reading a little more complex and demanding that the tabloid ‘gutter press’ that is obviously your preferred mode of research, but I’m convinced that with some effort on your part you may end up sounding less ignorant and ill informed.

    Mike Humphrey.
    Toronto Branch President.
    The Official Liverpool F.C. Supporters Club Of Canada.

  47. Dicky says:

    My advice to you steve after our email exchange – just keep your opinions to yourself as you aint doing you or your show any favours with such uneducated remarks , like I asked Have you read the Taylor Report ?
    You didnt answer the first time so perhaps try again , its a very simle question .

  48. Paul Bestall says:

    Todd, to support Cohens comments by saying the facts a disputable is completely and wholly incorrect. I’m not a Liverpool fan, but I suggest you read the Taylor report.
    The police lied, covered it up and blamed the fans for something they didn’t do. They stopped ambulances getting into the ground. They claimed all the fans were dead at 3.15pm. They claimed the fans had pushed the gate open. They knew the ground shouldn’t have been chosen for the game. They knew it’s safety concerns had been discussed since 1981. They lost the footage of the pens. The police inside the ground wanted the game delayed but were ignored. The fire brigade were told at 3.10 they weren’t needed.
    All these facts were proven as police lies in the independent Taylor Report. Quite what part of that is disputable I cannot see.

  49. T-CFC says:

    I agree with Steve, Liverpool fans are generally to blame for most issues at games they go to, whether or not Hillsborough was their fault entirely or not, they contributed to it (alongside all other elements in the Taylor report) – they also contributed to Heysel.

    As with those two events, Michael Shields, attacking an ambulance with an injured United player in it, throwing sh*t and p*ss at disabled Chelsea supporters at Anfield, and more recently, the European Cup final where they (again) rushed the gates and stole tickets from their own fans, the one common problem is Liverpool supporters.

    What rankles, and I assume Steve feels the same, is that they never take the blame, it’s always someone else’s fault – take the EC final, again they blamed poor policing and stewarding for the fact many of them got through – yet again it wasn’t ‘their’ fault, but everyone else’s(despite another fact that the Milan end suffered no issues).

    I personally have been threatened, abused, called at all hours and issued with death threats, just for being a Chelsea supporter who happened to write on a popular Chelsea site – the fact my number was online meant an endless barrage of abuse every time our teams met, they swarmed to our site, abused our staff and one even hacked it and caused untold damage – yet of course, it was none of these lovable rogues fault, was it?

    Many Liverpool supporters are honest and decent, and I do respect them – my heart also goes out to the families of the 96 as no-one should die at a match, and I agree that every team has their bad apples – not just Liverpool, it just seems that Liverpool’s really are the scum of the earth and outnumber nearly every other team in the world, bar none.

    Yet, it’s never their fault -and everyone else is to blame. Sorry, but after 20 years of the same old sh*t, it just doesn’t wash any longer.

    Ps. Interesting that Hillsborough is now a profit making industry, how is that justice for the 96?

  50. Jon says:

    For me, this proves that individual responsibility plays no role in our society anymore. We know that people without tickets showed up and tried to get in, this was obviously a contributing factor. Now the police didn’t do their job to keep fans out but the fans that day aren’t completely blameless. I feel awful for the majority who had tickets and brought their families and such, but those assholes who tried to get in without tickets have gotten away with murder (literally) the last 20 years. They are in part to blame, so are the police.

  51. WSD has some really good interviews, but otherwise isn’t worth a listen. Great thing they podcast and state what’s on so I can FFD to the appropriate spot – or simply delete when nothing’s worth listening to.

  52. Paul Bestall says:

    Sorry but in 1989, incredible as it may seem, it was very, very common for fans to arrive at the last minute without tickets, or cheapers tickets than they were entitled to. Not just liverpool fans, but fans everywhere.

    The police said the fans broke the gate down and ran in. They didn’t, the police opened the gate. A policemans job is to protect and serve, to keep the public order. It’s there job not to let them in. They refused to delay the kick off against requests from officers inside the ground. There is no evidence to suggest that a majority were ticketless, none at all. It’s another lie peddled by the police.

    By refusing to delay the kick off, opening that gate and lying about it, they reneged on those ideals.

  53. The Liquidator says:

    As a Chelsea fan living in the UK, you get used to the many, many faults of Liverpool fans – the self-righteousness, the idea that they are the model to follow, that anyone outside of their provincial shit pit of a city cares what they think about any matter, they’re ‘the best fans in the world’, special and different to anyone else etc etc etc.

    They also do have a rather nasty history of getting in at any cost, and not just at the CL final in Athens, but at grounds up and down the country. You only have to watch videos of the 1989 Cup Final to see ticketless fans climbing into Wembley up home made ropes (made from t-shirts). If you search the Red All Over the Land forum you’ll find one thread about the CL final, and the culture of ‘in’s in, la’ (as well as the level of racism among Liverpool fans that isn’t ever spoken about). This is fact. I, and many other supporters of various teams are sick of the myths and lies about Liverpool and its fans, the constantly having smoke blown up their arse when Anfield is one of the quietest grounds in the country, week in, week out. I also despise the fact they paid nothing but lip service to Heysel for years, and that their record of thievery and hooliganism (glorified in books as boneheaded as hoolie books out there) is completely brushed over. Anyone who’s had to share a stadium with them will know what I’m on about. And that’s before you get onto thier glory-hunting out of towner fans who have the gall to deride Chelsea fans history and support when they cherry picked a successful club off the shelf to support. In short, I f***cking hate them. But a couple of other things are also true:

    Hillsborough wasn’t their fault and Steve Cohen is a c*nt.

  54. Mike Humphrey. says:

    Jon, I’m not sure how old you are but you seem to be completely out of touch.

    Name one big game where supporters didn’t try to ‘bunk in’ without a ticket?

    It happened with _every_ club at _every_ big game.

    Hillsborough was no exception, a very small minority tried to bunk in, as was the case with every game at that time.

    Most normal football fans can realise this (I’m not talking about the likes of T-CFC and the other bitter morons who cling to the lies printed in the Sun 20 years ago) I’m talking about rational footy fans who realise that tragedy could have happened to any other supporters at any other club.

    There will always be the scum like T-CFC out to score points or third rate talk show hosts on Mickey Mouse chat shows that nobody listens to or cares about, desperate to create a bit of controversy in an attempt to add a few dozen listeners to their paltry totals.

    The rank and file that make up the decent supporters know what happened that day, the scum Sun readers can spout their lies all they want, it only serves to make them look even more pathetic than they already are.

  55. T-CFC says:

    Scum Mike? I base my opinions on my own experiences of the ‘lovable scousers’ – and the fact that Liverpool have been involved in more than their fair share of disasters, and trouble, is indisputable.

    I don’t know the full facts of that day, nor does anyone as no-one is omnipotent – all we have is a report that pieced together various pieces of the puzzle, but like any huge puzzle, invariable pieces get lost – so as I said, as much as I feel for the families involved, I don’t think the Taylor report is ‘fact’ – more a convenient truth.

  56. Paul Bestall says:

    And another thing, Cohens rubbish about Hillsborough being a safe ground is completely untrue, 38 Spurs fans were seriously injured in a crush in 1981 and it was a miracle no-one died.There were also crushing incidents in 1986, 1987 and 1988 at Hillsborough. It was a dump.
    It failed on 17 safety inspections.
    They are indisputable facts.

  57. Morgan says:

    I’ve just sent this to Cohen, and his employers.

    ————————————————————————————————————
    Mr. Cohen,

    Your comments regarding the Hillsborough disaster, specifically the role played by ticketless Liverpool supporters, are disgraceful and completely irresponsible. You said that there were 6-8,000 supporters without tickets, and that was the “root cause” of the disaster. This is completely false and all investigation has pointed to the contrary. Surely you know this, but don’t want to admit so much, because it doesn’t support your hate for Liverpool, or your “angle”. The fact is that you have made slanderous comments. You are spreading hate and lies. You know that you could not pass off this sort of garbage in the UK, but in the States unfortunately you think you can get away with it. Your arguement is pathetic and has no factual basis. The best thing you can do is make a formal apology on your radio show, and then never mention Hillsborough again. You are obviously out of touch with what is going on at Chelsea, and in the modern footballing World. Arguments like yours are pathetic and antiquated. If you feel like you as a Chelsea fan must have some sort of vendetta against Liverpool supporters (we’re not really rivals) fair enough, but this goes far, far beyond what could be considered acceptable banter. I have also written letters to your employers, alerting them to the fact that you are spreading slander on their channel. I can only hope they have the sense to take some sort of discipline against you, and see that you reflect a very negative image on the channel, which is desperatley trying to gain popularity.

    I hope that when you actually take the time to reflect, in the rarest of moments when you let the character you have created for yourself have a rest, and to do the right thing. Apologize, correct yourself, and then never spread these lies again.

  58. Peter Connolly says:

    Your an idiot! I was in that crush & ticketless fans were not evident. How do you think 6-8000 fans would fit in turnstiles with fans with tickets. I bet when you were a child you worked out how to fit a round peg into a square hole.

    Here’s a bit of advice for you. Only comment on things you know about & not about gossip you hear. It might just save your life.

  59. Mike Humphrey. says:

    >>I don’t think the Taylor report is ‘fact’

    Obviously, because it doesn’t concur with your warped account of events.

    If the Taylor report had condemned the Liverpool supporters you’d gradly accept it as gospel.

    Ironically Lord Justice Taylor was under pressure to come up with reasons why the Liverpool supporters were to blame that day. And as hard as he tried he found nothing that he could blame on the Liverpool fans, CCTV evidence clearly shows the Liverpool fans calmly walking down the tunnel after Gate C was opened.

    There was no indication of ticketless fans, the capacity was 10,100 for the Leppings Lane end and the highest estimate they had that day based on turnstiles and CCTV coverage was 10,124. Those fans died because the police directed over 3,000 into the centre pen (over twice it’s capacity).

    There was a desperate attempt to blame alcohol as a factor, the police took blood samples of all 95 bodies (including a 10 year old ffs) none of them were impaired, they even wasted hundreds of man hours collecting information from pubs and off licences hoping to find more incriminating ‘facts’……….. they found that the pubs and offy’s had sold less than usual as most of the Liverpool supporters arrived late due to a concerted effort to have trains and buses arriving as late as possible.

    I could go on and on, but would it serve any purpose? you admit to not knowing the facts of what happened that day, it still doesn’t stop you clinging to pathetic lies and innuendos though does it?

    You don’t need to be ‘omnipotent’ to know what happened, just read the Justice Taylor report, he had NOTHING to gain by exonerating the Liverpool supporters of blame and everything to lose by implicating the police, he had the courage to do it none the less.

    Sadly there will always be the scum who refuse to accept the facts and prefer to believe the lies, whether it’s to sell a few newspapers or get a few extra listeners to a third rate chat show. :-(

  60. RedZone says:

    T-CFC, if you do not have the facts and like steven cohens, should just keep your stupid opinion to yourself. Stop making false accusations. it is people like you and cohens who took incorrect information and start making false comments. Shame on you both.

  61. mike grabania says:

    As an American who has been a HUGE supporter of the EPL I really despise the fact fact that the footy fans of my country get a reputation as “know nothing yank “soccer” fans’ because of comments like this. I do not like liverpool fc
    from a fan standpoint, but to make light of any tragedy is utterly sickening!
    I got the same wearing a man utd shirt in west london, its funny how many shots are takin at the munich,hillsborough,and heysel disasters(among others)
    The long and the short of it is this,being a fan means giving and taking shit
    from different supporters,but these topics of death are HUMAN INTEREST and not about football! GOD BLESS EVERY PERSON AFFECTED BY THESE TRAGEDIES, and please let these ignorant people be, they will have to answer for this garbage one day.

  62. Michael Pillay says:

    He’s a scumbag…pure and simple!!!

  63. SMOOTH says:

    I love this guy (Steven Cohen). He’s got us talking about football!

  64. todd says:

    paul bestall and others… how many times do you need to say ‘have you read the taylor report’ or something to that affect? ill concede its the best document we have considering the events of that day. but calling on it as fact is ignorant of historical perspective. it is impossible to have a definitive primary document of the events that happened on the day of this tragedy. i take no side in the matter, simply that by relying on the taylor report to prove any point is weak. its selective in its use of evidence, and there are a number of sociological explanations for the results they found and how they sought them.

    just because you dress something up and call it official does not make it indisputable. you can call it independent, liverpool fans can feel exonerated. but from a historical perspective, its reckless to refer to the taylor report as the end all be all. there can be more to the story, and im so tired of hearing “facts” taken from the taylor report. specific figures or times can be figured out, but when the issue of blame comes up i dont think we should all just turn to the taylor report (or its hypothesis of what happened that day)

    so bring it on, tell my why we should all concede to everything the taylor report says. then ask yourself, would you ever take all your information from a man made document? you can tell me the taylor report was the best and least biased thing we can refer to, but that only gives it virtue by comparison. this is a matter of person taste though, i take a cynical look at history

  65. V Madhav says:

    I am a student from UIUC (Near Chicago for those who dont’ know :)…. )

    and as a resident of this country, I think this blokes view points are always tosh…

    He claimed that Drogba didnt’ dive and feign injury at Stamford Bridge in the UCL 2nd Leg quarter finals against Liverpool….

    Nuff Said

  66. Agnar Juliusson says:

    Yanks have never been held highly in regards to brain usage in comparison to the rest of the civilized world who actually know the names of foreign dignitaries.

    Steve Cohen makes no exception why I should reconsider my opinion.

    What a twat.

  67. mike grabania says:

    FOR ALL OF U ; STEVEN COHEN IS BRITISH HE IS FROM LONDON,NOT L.A.!

  68. Gaz says:

    Send an email to wsd@worldsoccerdaily.com telling them how much of an idiot he is. Then boycott. That’s all we can do.

  69. Venez Tiger says:

    I have been listening to the show for about 6 months and quiet honestly he is a hypocrit, his unconditional support for Israel and their terrorist actions against the Palestinians, goes hand in hand with his hatred of Liverpool and their supporters, to him all things wrong are the fault of Liverpool and everything good is because of Chelsea, he is a disgrace and brings down what is otherwise an informative for the most part show

  70. doublepivot says:

    Highlights from today’s parade of ignorance and hate

    bob
    equates Cohen’s rants to the holocaust. Seems to be doing so because Cohen is jewish. Class

    GBH
    hopes cancer upon another human being. Also for some reason talks about the death that Cohen’s countrymen have caused. Cohen is English, so I wonder if GBH has. Killed a lot of Indians in East America with their biological warfare, those English. Sure Asian Indians and Africans have a lot of issues with GBH’s kind too.

    kirker
    calls him a Yank prick. Assuming this to be a jingoistic comment, kirker is too ignorant to realize that Cohen is a Londoner

    Andy Goldberg
    also links this too the holocaust. Stupid opinion about a football tragedy is not equal to millions and millions systematically killed for how they were born. Perhaps we are supposed to forgive such stupidity because it’s from a Goldberg. Much like Cohen, this guy also embarrasses his people.

    Tony F
    makes a comment about his children. Seems like a threat. Glad to see Chris is using this site to insight violence against children

    Alan Grant
    calls Cohen dangerous because he lies about Liverpool. Lying about a rival club would make us all deranged sociopaths.

    Paul Bestall
    listened to the most recent Spurs Show with Phil Cornwell

    Agnar Juliusson
    once again anti-American, when Cohen is British. But glad to see that your hatred of people you don’t know has clouded your ignorance of your own disgusting traits.

    and a whole lot of c**s.

    And if you’re calling someone a c**t you probably know from your daily views in the mirror

    And Cohen owns his company with a fellow Liverpool fan. So, just like Chris has done here, he is using shock methods to garner audience.

    Funny how it always works.

    But the most disgusting thing about this article, and its response is how this tragedy has become a platform for people to say the most vile things about other humans. 96 people dead is not a reason for YOU to behave like an animal whether you agree with Cohen or you’ve memorized some report. These were real lives and the lot of you are using their deaths as a bludgeon to enfranchise your most stupid ideas and foist them upon all of us.

    Shame on all of you. You’re truly all scumbags.

  71. SMOOTH-

    Actually, Steven Cohen’s got us talking about Steven Cohen instead of our usual course of action, which is talking about football.

    Football loses today.

  72. Phil Kirwin says:

    I’ve emailed Apple in an effort to have his show withdrawn from iTunes.

    He also works for Fox which is part of Murdoch’s empire so I wouldn’t expect anything from them.

    How Nick Geber can consider someone with this view point a friend – time to cut your losses Nick.

  73. Sutebia says:

    @doublepivot perfect.

    Steven is not a journalist. And he makes no clam that he is. I believe that when someone from my generation hears any bit of news the look deeper into it. To think that Cohen is like some professor of football for young impressible Americans is rubbish. He may be wrong, but he is just stating his opinion, and callers, Email, and other Pundits have debated with him on this subject.

    How about we get on with the football and leave politics and emotions over lost lives out of out opinions. If Steven would put his anger for Liverpudlians at home then he might not have this opinion.

  74. ArthurArseGooner says:

    something has to be said about the people writing on here especially the gaf and kartik, that they support steven cohen’s rival radio show, which means that we should not listen to what the gaf has to say or kartik has to say, along with what cohen has to say. they are all bigots with agendas. lets just learn the facts on our own and make our own judgments.

  75. Harry says:

    Those who are on the back of dodgy mule of high moral, need to get off and see what actually happened. Liverpool fans with no ticket were the root cause. In any process there is a cause and there is a trigger, resulting to an effect or an outcome. Its is about time people stop milking H. tragedy and come to term with it. People in particular Liverpool fans were directly responsible for the tragedy.

  76. Red4Ever says:

    Rubbish. Now he is informing new fans of this rubbish, so they won’t know the facts. He is supposed to educate fans, not spew lies. The fans aren’t at fault, they played a part but don’t blame this entirely on them. And do not say we should just come to terms with this, and let it g o, or “stop milking it” as you say. We aren’t milking it. We are remembering those who were killed, when all they had wanted to do was cheer LFC onto victory. This was a tragic, horrible incident. Let me guess…you support Manu?

  77. ossie's dream says:

    Can someone please explain to ArthurArseGooner that this is a football blog where the Gaffer et al discuss footballing matters? Or perhaps we should all just stare at the wall and “learn the facts on our own and make our own judgments.”

  78. ArthurArseGooner says:

    ossie’s dream you always go out of your way to criticize me. i think that the gaffer, who is friends with kartik, should also mention in his article that he’s friends with someone who works for a rival radio show/network to that of cohen’s world soccer daily. thats all. i said that we shouldnt take to cohen’s judgments as fact, but we shouldnt take the gaffer’s judgments as fact either. we should all have the interest in learning more and the best way to do that is by finding the information on your own.

  79. ossie's dream says:

    todd said:

    “ill concede its (The Taylor Report) the best document we have considering the events of that day.”

    “relying on the taylor report to prove any point is weak.”

    You sort of undid your own argument in your very first paragraph, old chap. Unless, of course, you know that Steve Cohen has some other source of historical information that trumps the Taylor Report, and isn’t a complete and utter ignorant moron, as The Gaffer’s blog post argues.

  80. ArthurArseGooner says:

    ossie’s dream oh ossie’s dream you must support liverpool? well lets just say this, if this happened to any other team, say manchester united, would you be here still?

  81. Charles says:

    I agree with Steven. Why is it so hard to accept the truth? It’s like American consumers who want to blame everyone but themselves for the economic meltdown. Standing at stadiums is not the equivalent of playing Russian roulette. All seaters have sucked the life out of Football. What happened was a tragedy but the aftermath was horribly overblown. Get over it, move on and bring the passion back to the game.

  82. ossie's dream says:

    Don’t take it personal, ArthurArseGooner (I’m having a pop a todd too). However, you do seem to be very critical of this blog and for the strangest reasons. The Gaffer is the friend of someone at a rival radio show? I’m not sure how that is relevant. If someone like Steve Cohen says outrageous things on the radio, what is this – a blog about football and its broadcast coverage in the US – supposed to do? Ignore it?

    The Gaffer took great care in refuting Steve Cohen’s idiotic comments by referring to the one definitive report – The Taylor Report. Unless you know of some other report of Hillsborough or another source of information we can use to gain a deeper understanding of that day’s events, your argument doesn’t hold much water.

  83. ossie's dream says:

    ArthurArseGooner said:

    ossie’s dream oh ossie’s dream you must support liverpool? well lets just say this, if this happened to any other team, say manchester united, would you be here still?

    Oh, Lordy! Is it not patently obvious which team I support? How old are you, 12?

  84. ossie's dream says:

    todd said:
    there can be more to the story, and im so tired of hearing “facts” taken from the taylor report

    And…

    i dont think we should all just turn to the taylor report (or its hypothesis of what happened that day)

    and…

    tell my why we should all concede to everything the taylor report says.

    Finally, the best bit…

    would you ever take all your information from a man made document?

    todd – what do you suggest, we take all our information from a report made by…badgers?

    If you have another source of information, something other than the Taylor Report (you know, the report by Lord Justice Taylor after reviewing 31 days of testimony and evidence) then by all means, share it with us! Perhaps there was another report made in a parallel universe, where the conclusions reached were quite the opposite. Be a good chap and show us where we can find that. Cheers

  85. ArthurArseGooner says:

    ossie, that means youre biased, it doesnt mean im 12.

  86. Ben says:

    I.,m a loserpool fan, I love to wallow in self pity, everyone hates us, folk are always ganging up and picking on us, its not our fault, we,re nice. I like to talk about histoooreeee etc etc ad nausiem

  87. Chops Jackson says:

    Face facts,some Liverpool fans,the ones turning up late without a ticket and pushing/forcing their way in,were responsible for what happened at Hillsboro,the same as some Police were responsible for their reaction to what was happening in the stadium and their decisions not to open the gates on the pitchside fence.

  88. fid1892 says:

    Ossie’s Dream …. you ask Arthur@rseGooner if he is 12 as if that would be the reason he cannot work out your allegiances. I would offer that the reason he is unable to do that is purely and simply because he is a tw@t. My 11 year old and 7 year old can work out who you follow !

    JFT96

  89. fid1892 says:

    Forgot to add …. I would like to send an open invite to Steve Cohen to visit Liverpool and have the opportunity to air his views on Hillsborough. should make for an interesting evening !

    JFT96

  90. Target Man says:

    It is tragic to see that once the internet gets involved, both moral and cognitive responsibility go down the drain. I can understand why some outsiders find it annoying to hear about Hillsborough, but that is no excuse to repeat allegations that have been critically weighed and rejected by independent inquiries as well as numerous scholars. Such allegations are extremely painful and cause great distress to the families who lost loved ones on that day as well as to the survivors. We are talking about the families of 96 people, who died, 700 who were injured and thousands who escaped without physical scars but whose lives were forever affected by the events of that day.

    I don’t approve of the holocaust comparison, because the scales are so different, and in any case there is a major difference between the negligence and complacency that Taylor identified as the deciding factor at Hillsborough and the deliberate mass murder of millions.

    But think of another anniversary that is taking place these days, the anniversary of the Columbine shooting. For all the things that go on in high school, would anyone find it appropriate to blame the students and teachers killed and wounded that day? Would anyone here go to the mother of one those murdered and say: “Your daughter caused her own death”?

    The Taylor Report weighs the evidence of previous problems at Hillsborough such as the 1981 crush which led the stadium to be passed over for major events for six years, the known behaviour of football fans (including Liverpool fans), the rate with which fans could pass through the turnstiles, the note on the tickets asking people to show up 15 minutes before kickoff, and the police effort on the day of Hillsborough and on previous occasions. His analysis argues quite convincingly that the main difference between the day of the disaster and other match days lay in the police effort.

    In fact, the very same match-up with a similar number of fans had been policed without incident the previous year, when the police had actually blocked the tunnel leading to the central pens and redirected fans to the outer pens, something which they failed to do on April 15th, 1989.

    On that fatal day, the police also decided against using the most basic and effective way of dealing with a crush at the turnstiles, which is to postpone kickoff.

    Whether or not you like its conclusions, the Taylor Report is a cognitively responsible document, which no responsible person would contradict simply based on personal opinion, preferences or dislikes.

    I understand quite well if some people dislike Liverpool fans, especially if they have had bad experiences with them. I understand that some have experienced Liverpool fans singing about Munich in front of a Man Utd crowd. I can assure you that the vast majority of Liverpool fans disapprove of such behaviour as well.

    But the death of 96 people, the injuries and psychological traumas to hundreds of other, and the grief that this has caused is no matter for irresponsible opinionating and mud-slinging based on a gross misrepresentation of the event of that fateful day, and on allegations that have repeatedly dismissed by responsible and independent sources and investigations.

    If you have a grudge against Liverpool FC and their fans, please find a more appropriate way of voicing it.

  91. Matt says:

    Sad to see that this has descended into ‘Brits versus ‘Yanks’ and arguments (or should that be insults) related to club rivalries. 96 people lost their lives that day at a football match – that’s the bottom line. How anyone can use such a tragic loss of life to score pathetic partisan points is beyond me – it just shows a total lack of basic human dignity and respect. How sad.

  92. Kirsty says:

    An up himself yank who supports blue scum and supposedley the ‘soccer’ voice of the most hypocrytical country in the world should be shot!! How dare he even have the cheek to turn around and blame the Liverpool fans for what happened that day. 96 fans one as young as 10 lost their lives that day because of the POLICE no one else. So what if fans turned up ticketless it has happened numerous times at many sporting events all around the world for god knows how long. That day the police caused the death of those 96 fans not our own fans. They were useless that day and their failure to control a crowd when that is what there job resulted in those deaths. And the ones responsible have got away with murder for 20 years now. Those families that lost loved ones that day have never stopped campaigning for justice and have been fed lies and stories over those years. The idiots that day who even said at 3:15pm all the people were dead when some were still seen alive at 4pm is sick and disgusting! I’d like to this idiot put in a room with those families and then say what he has to say again. Steven Cohen you are a sick and disgusting man and in future keep your NOT TRUE opinions to yourself and have some bloody respect for the people that lost their lives that day!!!

  93. Mike Humphrey. says:

    I’m not sure that ‘descend’ is the right word Matt, this was always going to head in one direction only.

    It’s pointless trying to debate with morons, they are not very bright and have generally made up their minds already, usually based on ignorance, bigotry or petty parochial bitterness.

    I suppose many would question why would we even bother to respond to Mr Cohen, why give the sad little “nobody” his 15 minutes of fame?

    Personally I feel that ‘haters’ like Mr Cohen need to be confronted, their lies need to be exposed, and hopefully for every person who reads and is taken in by his hateful lies there are many more who will take the time to seek out the facts surrounding the Hillsborough tragedy and realise just what happened on that day 20 years ago.

    Justice For The 96.

  94. Neil Jenkins says:

    Difficult to add anything that’s not been said already in other posts. However, one thing that IS worth restating is that this boy Cohen is an utter disgrace.

  95. Matt says:

    I agree Mike – I just don’t think resorting to abuse is the way to get the point across, and there are plenty of examples of that in these comments. Obviously, this is an emotive issue for some of us and I want to challege anyone who spreads myth and misinformation – that’s why I’m posting on this godforsaken site. I just don’t think that getting into issues around nationality and club loyalty is relevant or particularly helpful

  96. Matt says:

    I agree Mike – I just don’t think resorting to abuse is the way to get the point across, and there are plenty of examples of that in these comments. Obviously, this is an emotive issue for some of us and I want to challenge anyone who spreads myth and misinformation – that’s why I’m posting on this godforsaken site. I just don’t think that getting into issues around nationality and club loyalty is relevant or particularly helpful

  97. andy says:

    The man is grade a weapon and utter bellwhiff.

  98. Neil Jenkins says:

    Oh, and just for the record, I’ve heard anti-Munich songs sung at grounds and by supporters up and down the country – more so than I ever have at Liverpool, it must be said. So don’t try to stick that one exclusively on Liverpool supporters.

    This exchange of views has quickly become extremely polarised with people sticking everything on Cohen or everything on Liverpool fans. Let’s all step back and take a little perspective and remember what it is we’re discussed here. Was Cohen right to say what he said? My view is no, he most certainly wasn’t. Moreover, I think his expression of opinion was disgraceful. To that I need add no personal attack on him, nor on Chelsea fans, Man United fans, etc. Similarly, anyone with an opposing view ought not to have any cause to attack Liverpool fans. In other words, we shouldn’t be using this discussion as a feeble excuse to ‘have a go’.

  99. Mike says:

    Let’s put a few records straight shall we, Rome 1984, European cup final Roma Vs Liverpool, at Roma’s home stadium. Liverpool won a dour game on penalties, the Roma fans did not like getting beat on their home patch, hence after the game roving fans of Roma in scooter gangs stabbing and slashing fans, even young families. One 13yr old boy had to have 300 stitches, fans oout of spite of fear of reprisal were denied entry to their hotels and coach drivers left them stranded. The Rome police were just as brutal and even confiscated valuables. Many. many supporters had to seek refuge at the British Consulate in fear of their lives. Not conjecture but fact, members of my own family had to.

    Fast forward 12 months to the Heysel stadium Brussels, a dilapidated athletics stadium that Liverpool officials had prior to the game complained about.
    The treatment of British fans the year before was a catalyst for hooligans on both sides, supporting many teams to treat the final as a battle ground, National Front members were clearly visible, southerners with Chelsea and Millwall allegiances there only for trouble ( Words of Liberal councillor Peter Millea ). As Liverpool fans arrived they were pelted with everything from bricks to bottles ( my own 50yr old uncle needed 20 stitches in a head wound ) retaliation came in the same way. Fans seperated by mesh fences = trouble, especially after what happened a year earlier. The main catalyst for the main rush was the fact the Police did nothing to stop the Italian fans and a well documented incidence were upon a gang of adult Italian fans left a 14 yr old Liverpool supporter beaten to within an inch of his life in plain view of the Police and despite other fans coming to his aid. The two parties met, he Italians behind ( innocent fans ) ran, and the wall gave way. Liverpool fans accept a huge portion of the blame en masse. Also, remember the Juve fan with a gun ( starter pistol as it turns out ) or the miraculously produced 20 ft banner proclaiming ‘ Reds Animals ‘ appearing an hour later ? Odd that, almost planned wouldn’t you say. RIP the 39.

    Forward to April 15th 1989, Hillsborough stadium, Sheffield, an FA Cup semi-final, Liverpool Vs Notts Forest. Some fans arrive late, some have had a drink, some have no tickets, a very small amount. Inside the ground the middle section at the Leppings Lane end is already very full, under instruction the Police officer in charge agrees to open an exit gate to ease the build up of fans, no pushing, no charging, just the normal behaviour at any top game in the 80′s, excitement and anticipation. Now instead of closing the tunnel to block of access to the middle section, a simple task, and funnelling the fans into the less populated sides the police send the fans down the tunnel, they have no way of knowing or seeing the way to the side sections, and signage was poor and, or none existant, at that point people at the back had no idea what was happening at the front. The rest unfortunately is history.
    I lost people there. I have sent e-mails answered ) to steve Cohen with an offer to civilly discuss the tragedy, he accepted and i await further response.
    The sun newspaper and Kelvin Mackenzie are a different kettle of fish.

    Michael Shields is innocent, another man admitted the assault.
    What an incident in a Bulgarian street ha sto do with Hillsborough i don’t know, assault happen everywhere, just another stick to beat us with i guess.

    Athens. Poor policing, stewarding ( clubs fault ) and a downright lack of common sense on some fans part. Very poor form indeed, but it happens, in some cases though it goes unmentioned, mud sticks eh ?
    No injuries or fatalities, just poor organisation and bad behaviour by a minority.

  100. RedJohn says:

    Whining,moaning,bitching Liverpool fans,it’s always the same with them,it was the Polices fault at Hillsborough,it was Chelseas fault at Heysel,it was UEFA’s fault in Athens.
    They will never take any responsibility from the actions of the s.c.u.m who follow them,the same sc.u.m who cause death,destruction and misery wherever they go.
    I’ve been at Anfield watching United,whenthe whole of the ground was rocking to the sound of ” Who’s that lying on the runway ” .I’ve seen Matt Busby get abused and spat at by Liverpool fans,the pr.ick.s doing it were probably unaware that Busby was once Liverpool FC captain,the sh.it chucking sc.um are the lowest of the low,who can dish it out,but whinge like fu.ck when they get it served back with interest.
    Saying that,nobody deserves to die supporting their club and I genuinley feel sorry for the people who lost their lives at Hillsborough,Heysel,Bradford etc:

  101. Mattieboy says:

    An Open Letter to the producers of World Soccer Daily:

    I am disgusted by Steve Cohen’s comments regarding ‘the root cause’ of the Hillsborough disaster in last week’s World Soccer Daily Hillsborough special podcast.

    It should be of concern to your station/website that either Mr Cohen is at best horrendously misinformed or that at worst he exploits the platform you give him by fabricating hurtful theories and passing them off as fact to suit his own warped agenda. The reason that “nobody discusses the 6-8,000 supporters who showed up without tickets” is because they didn’t exist. Its there in black and white in the government report into the disaster available here http://www.southyorks.police.uk/foi/publicationscheme/significantpublicinterest. And should Mr Cohen’s attention span be too deficient to deal with that then he should visit http://www.hfdinfo.com for a more concise summary about what happened at Hillsborough.

    Mr Cohen and his producers must understand that the continuous myth-peddalling regarding the fans behaviour outside Hillsborough (disregarded out of hand in the interim Taylot Report) continues to contribute directly and implicitly to the suffering of relatives of those who died. The pain of losing a son, a daughter, a sister, a brother or a partner killed a football match must be unimaginable. On top of that the bereaved realtives have to deal with the fact that despite the blame for the disaster being layed fairly and squarely at the feet of the police and the match commander on the day, inexplicably, no authority or individual has legally been held to account for what happened, and not even an apology issued. The effect of this has been that families have been denied the possibility of getting any sort of closure on the issue.

    Its in the context of these horiffic circumstances that Mr Cohen chooses to shoot his mouth off. Thanks to the irresponsible and innacurate claims regharding the supporter’s behaviour from The Sun’s headlines back in April 1989 right up to Mr Cohen’s ill-informed rant 20 years on, the bereaved families of Hillsborough feel they are still also having to clear the names of their loved ones.

    Finally, in the podcast in question Mr Cohen appears to be outraged about people not taking responsibility for their actions. Hmmm. I’ve now read how Mr Cohen has once previously been forced to apologise for stating that Liverpool fans were to blame for Hillsborough in a Fox Football Fone-In. Do you care that World Soccer Daily, in this instance, has become a mouthpiece for such blatant and dangrous innacuracies from a man with a track record of doing so? Does it matter that one of your anchormen continually spreads lies about this emotive subject? I’d be embarrassed to give someone who obviously has some sort of axe to grind a platform from which to do so. Where is your editorial integrity World Soccer Daily?

    I think Mr Cohen’s words are an absolute disgrace and as he is so obviously incapable of taking any responsibility for himself then World Soccer Daily should. I propose a podcast that is decicated to educating Mr Cohen, in which he can learn the truth about Hillsborough. For the truth you should try to speak to the likes of Phil Scraton (Author, Hillsborough: The Truth), Sheila Coleman (Hillsborough Justice Campaign), Jim Sharman (Hillsborough: Context and Consequences) and Trevor Hicks (Hillsborough Family Support Group). I’m sure Mr Hicks, who lost both his daughters at Hillsborough, might be able to explain to Mr Cohen the effects that myths about ticketless Liverpool continues to have on the families search for justice and closure.

  102. Shanks. says:

    Cohen speaks the truth,but sadly Stevie Boy,you’re wasting your time,scousers cant stomach THE TRUTH !

  103. Mike says:

    Red John. Where and when was the spitting at Sir Matt ?

    Incidentally before Heysel Liverpool had no noticeable hooligan element, a few gobshytes like every team i grant you. The Chelseas and Man Utd however were notorious.

  104. Mike says:

    Spitting at Sir Matt, elaborate ?

  105. JD says:

    Please stop slandering Liverpool, Liverpool FC and Liverpool supporters.
    Now surely is not the time, please have some respect.

    I have never heard of Mr Cohen (don’t particuarly want to hear of him again) if he thinks he knows the facts he is very wrong, others should check prior to commenting.

    I narrowly escaped from the crush at Hillsborough, I was at Athens and I attended the Memorial service last week, I am a season ticket holder on the Kop.

    The facts are available for anyone to read about Hillsborough, re The Taylor Report, the book ‘Hillsborough the Truth’, or via the TV docu drama ‘Hillsborough’ people should do so prior to forming their opinions.

    Athens was a poorly organised event at an Athletics Stadium , without turnstiles (i still have my complete ticket) with only 20,000 seats allocated to LFC whilst the Stadium held 80,000+ its UEFA who got this one wrong.
    Football’s gala event should be played in Football stadiums of which there has to be 20 excellent venues throughout Europe. UEFA are not the most sensible of organisations, the last few finals read Istanbul, Athens, Paris and Moscow an English team has been involved in all
    A number of LFC fans did try to gain entry without tickets that is a fact, the same number however were locked outside with valid tickets, the stadium was not over full. The ‘bunk in’ as a badge of honour is something that our fans need to stop, but do not use this as the norm, how many fans do you actually think can illegally gain entry to a turnstiled stadium?

    I do not believe that Liverpool is a self pity city as some people here have said, it is proud of its heritage and culture, it has many faults as does any city.

    I do believe that the lives of 96 innocent football fans were lost by the incompetence of others, if you want to use this as a tool to vent your dislike of all things Liverpool then that is up to you.
    Just don’t do it on the 20th anniversary of this disaster.

    I will say a huge thank you to all the Chelsea fans who have shown their respects by tying their club scarves and shirts on the memorial and gates, other CFC fans appear not to have the same grace.

    JFT 96
    YNWA

  106. Matt says:

    RedJohn – every club has it’s share of moronic fans (Utd included, whether you choose to accept it or not). Liverpool fans, and the club, accept their share of responsibility for Heysel and rightly so – but it should not be forgotten that the chairman of the Belgium FA went to prison for six months as a direct result of the mismangement of the event and the state of the stadium. Ultimately that disaster came down to the behaviour of a minority in both sets of fans in a stadium that was literally falling down – hardly a fitting setting for Europe’s showpiece game. The sad reality is that 38 Italian fans and one Belgian lost their lives as a result – but the causes were a lot more complex than you make out.

    Hillsborough was an entirely different situation – largely borne out of the treatment of football fans as almost ‘sub-human’ by the football industry and the authorities – fans were packed into ‘pens’ surrounded by barbed wire fences for God’s sake – we wouldn’t even keep animals like that these days. The reality is that those people died because the authorities failed in their duty of care (and then attempted to absolve themselves by launching a smear campaign against the supporters present that day – the S*n coverage now so blighely trotted out by people like Steve Cohen, and long since entirely discredited, being the most famous expression of that).

    The truth is that the tragedy at Hillsborough could have happened to any set of fans – beause they were treated as ‘turnstile fodder’ by football clubs and the police. Anyone who experienced football in the 70s and 80s should respect their memory and think ‘there but for the grace of God’.

  107. Rob Oliver says:

    How do you even manage to have a voice!?

    Your credentials are poor at best. A lazy Journalist (for want of a better word). With no facts at all. You’re a disgrace. Heysel was a throw back form the year before when Liverpool beat Roma in their own stadium.. Only for Liverpool fans to be attacked with drive by knife attacks by Roman fans. Belgium had leading gangs from most English, Scottish and welsh clubs there, All set on revenge. The Ground was tired and insufficient. And yet the UEFA panel made that decision to use it post their 4th visit.

    And Hillsborough.

    The gates were opened by the Police. Someone headed the Police up and gave that order and the order to refuse entry for the emergency services.. As insightful decision as your words.
    Yes Liverpool fans turned up hopeful of getting a ticket on the day. And who wouldnt given the significance of the occasion. With no knowledge of how bad things would get. It’s the Polices Job view with the aid of CCTV and Helicopters and word on the ground to make informed, secure decisions beyond any reasonable doubt. That’s what you are missing in your ignorant analyse sat on you comfortable ego inflated chair. How on Gods earth are you given a voice..

    I was at both games and Rome the year before. Every breath you take on both subjects is wasted. You are ill informed and Ignorant and misrepresent the hard working real journalist. You lazy freak.

    Producer / Editor / Exec Producer / Financier / Angel.. Sack him before he embarrasses you any more… You’re not getting what you’re paying for and he’s lazy..

  108. Mike says:

    The internet is a wonderful thing but has created a whole host of keyboard warriors, i would gladly meet with people and debate the rights and wrongs of all things football, my views would be no different in person as they were on here. Bet some cannot say the same. Vitriol and hate are fine hidden behind a computer screen.

  109. karim says:

    96 innocent people lost their lives and until a respectable view of the incident then these families have the right to carry on looking for justice.

    Ive read the Taylor report and I for one can not wait until the government open the files and realise that there were a lot of people inside and outside of the ground responsible. I for one certainly believe its a cover up by the Police, and as there was only 2 officers in charge of the event, they froze. They had a split second to make the right decision and unfortunately for the 96 they made the wrong one. 730 people were injured too, lets not forget that either.

    The reasns for the cut off point, not allowing ambulances, i have no idea about, thats in the files which should be opened up for public examination.

    I for one would hope that the Jury give the erdict of unlawful killing when the next trials start.

  110. Bill Shannon says:

    On Monday’s episode of the World Soccer Daily show, radio co-host Steven Cohen failed to apologize to Liverpool supporters regarding the inaccurate statements he made about their role in the Hillsborough Disaster that occurred on April 15, 1989.

    The inaccurate statements made by Cohen on his April 13, 2009 episode of World Soccer Daily were that:

    1. Ticketless Liverpool supporters were the root cause of the Hillsborough Disaster,
    2. 6-8,000 ticketless Liverpool supporters showed up outside Hillsborough, and
    3. Sheffield Wednesday’s Hillsborough Stadium was used week-in week-out without incident.

    Instead of apologizing, he softened his April 13 stance on his belief that there were 6-8,000 ticketless Liverpool supporters outside the ground. During the April 20, 2009 episode, he first said “There were several thousand who showed up without tickets.” But a few minutes later, when co-host Kenny Hassan gave Cohen an opportunity to retract the 6-8,000 number, Cohen replied “If it’s not the right number, it’s not the point. If I’m wrong on the number, then I’ll retract it and apologize. If it’s 25, 2500 or 25,000, my point is made for me. There were people there who shouldn’t have been there because they didn’t have tickets and they were hell bent on getting in. I’m sorry, those are the facts.”

    Cohen is barking up the wrong tree when he claims ticketless fans contributed to the disaster. They did not. According to The Hillsborough Football Disaster paper entitled Context and Consequences, page 17, “[Lord Justice] Taylor surmised there was no substance to the allegation that ticketless fans caused the Disaster.”

    And while there may have been some ticketless supporters outside the ground — as there are at any major football game or sporting event — “I have already found that there was not an abnormally large number of fans without tickets on this occasion,” said Lord Taylor in his interim report. “With one or two exceptions, the police witnesses themselves did not subscribe to the ‘conspiracy’ theory (of a large number of late-arriving ticketless supporters).”

    Cohen has seemingly changed his tune about Liverpool — from the extreme opinion on April 13 that the ticketless fans were the root cause of the Hillsborough Disaster to a twisted logic on April 20 that insists on Liverpool fans admitting that they were part responsible for the disaster because some ticketless fans were hell bent on getting inside the stadium.

    According to a report from the Health and Safety Executive (HSE), “it was unlikely that the terrace exceeded 10,124 and that total admissions were approximately equal to the designated capacity of 10,100 people.”

    So even if there were as few as 24 ticketless supporters who were hell bent on getting into the Leppings Lane end, it would have been impossible for those fans — who were vastly outnumbered — to have an impact on the more than 3,000 fans who were inside the central pen.

    “The point is if the people [without tickets] hadn’t been outside, this never [would have] happened,” said Cohen. “This is a stadium that had no problems prior to this particular day. That’s a fact.”

    Except that it isn’t a fact. It’s inaccurate. As I reported in Monday’s EPL Talk article, there had been several incidents at Hillsborough prior to April 15, 1989 — most notably a game in 1981 when 38 Spurs supporters suffered crush-related injuries in the same Leppings Lane stand.

    It’s time for Steven Cohen to share the facts with us that he claims he has. It’s also time for Cohen to publicly retract his statement that there were 6-8,000 ticketless Liverpool supporters. And most importantly of all, he needs to retract his statement that Liverpool fans were responsible for the Hillsborough Disaster.

    There’s no evidence to show that 24 supporters sneaking over the wall at Hillsborough were a factor in the death of the 96 Liverpool fans who died from crush-related injuries. But there are plenty of pieces of evidence that chronicle the list of mistakes that South Yorkshire Police, Sheffield Wednesday and the Football Association committed.

    For Steven Cohen to not apologize on air and to carry on about the need for Liverpool to share the responsibility of what happened at Hillsborough is sickening. It’s time for Cohen to admit he was wrong, apologize to Liverpool fans and to read the Taylor Interim Report to better educate himself and his World Soccer Daily listeners.

    If he doesn’t apologize to his radio listeners, I’m concerned that he may spread his misinformation about what caused the Hillsborough Disaster to the weekly Fox Football Fone-In TV show that he co-hosts on Fox Soccer Channel. Having a loose cannon like Cohen on live TV is a risk that Fox has to determine whether it’s worth taking.

    EPL Talk readers interested in learning more about Hillsborough as well as the chance to see TV footage and interviews should watch the excellent BBC Football Focus video from April 11, 2009 which was a special tribute to the 20th anniversary of the Hillsborough Disaster.

    I should note that Kartik Krishnaiyer, from our sister site Major League Soccer Talk, had an interview previously arranged with Cohen for this Thursday, so feel free to post your questions for Cohen there. The interview is a golden opportunity for Cohen to respond to direct questions from you about his opinions regarding what really happened at Hillsborough.

  111. Neil Jenkins says:

    You know, I, and others, are just wasting our breath (or rather fingers) trying to be reasonable on here. It seems that no matter how grounded you try to keep the discussion, no matter how civilised, no matter how sensible, people are just going to come on and use it as an excuse to vent deep-rooted (and often irrational) hatred and fan the flames of unwarranted insult and unjust accusation. It’s the sort of thing that makes me realise that, when it comes down to it, humanity sucks. Big time.

  112. Jonty Trunder says:

    Unfortunately for Liverpool fans this guy is just summing up what a lot of other football fans think. Although I don’t think he did it in a desperatley great way.

    It may not have been the Liverpool fans fault but they have to accept partial responsibility. They also have to accept that part of the reason the crowds were treated as they were may have been because of Liverpool fan’s reputation after Heysel.

    It was a tragedy that should never have happened but everyone including Wednesday, SY Police AND Liverpool fans have to accept some responsibility. Not the fans that died as they were the ones that had turned up early and were innocent but the fans outside the ground have to accept their part.

    Its blasphemous to say this but its the unfortunate truth.

  113. Joe the Pole says:

    Well said Jonty.

  114. Macca says:

    Steven Cohen is a wum,he threw out the bait knowing full well it would offend lots of Liverpool fans and lots of them would bite.
    Something I would like to say is…
    Thank you very much to Everton supporters who stood beside us in 89′,respect to the Everton Manager David Moyes who was sat on the Kop last week at the 20th year service and the other blues in the ground.
    Finally many thanks to the Evertonians who took the flags to Wembley on Sunday,highlighting the Hillsborough tragedy.
    Complete and utter respect to our Blue brothers and sisters.

  115. Matt says:

    Jonty – that may well be what some football fans think, but they, and you, are plain wrong. I suggest you check the facts – there are plenty of official sources listed on this page.

  116. Fnarf says:

    I have emailed Fox Football Fone In at fff@foxsoccer.com and suggest you do the same. Please bear in mind that intelligently worded complaints with no obscenities are more likely to be heard. I will not watch FFFI again until this piece of trash is removed from the air.

  117. Jerry says:

    Complain to Sirius Satellite Radio, who broadcast World Soccer Daily.

    Here’s the link…

    http://www.sirius.com/customercare

  118. jason says:

    Being in the States I have watched Fox Football Fone-In, and recently sent them an email advising them I would no longer watch the show (strictly going with Football Matters on Setanta) until such a time as Cohen is no longer employed.

    I would emplore everyone who views the show, and cares about Liverpool or EPL in general to do the same. Cohen is using his shows as a pulpit to attack LFC. It shows a lack of integrity to come out with a one-sided view to listeners in the States who may not know the facts and/or how to find the truth.

    Cohen clearly has issues with Liverpool Fc. In a previous show he mentioned he happened to be at Anfield for a Chelsea match, and he made it sound like anyone with a London accent was in danger while leaving the stadium. He is complete rubbish.

  119. Paul Bestall says:

    What astounds me is the amount untrue rubbish being spouted by people who’s hatred of Liverpool has blinkered their minds.
    The Taylor Report concluded that no amount of ticketless fans forced entry. The fans didn’t run in to the pen, the police opened the gates, refused the ambulances access, told the fire brigade they weren’t required, there was also no evidence of fans being drunk but the police instructed the coroner to check the blood/alcohol limit of every victim, including a ten year old boy and they claimed every victim was dead by 3.15pm. Hillsborough was a dump that shouldn’t have been used in 1988, never mind 1989.
    All discussed using POLICEMENS statements. Damn those lying policemen.
    PS, I don’t support Liverpool or hate a Chelsea fan that keeps wearing Arsenal shirts.

  120. Paul says:

    Lets hope the following email to the CEO at WSD Radio will prove a point!

    Sirs

    I write with regard to an output from one of your presenters on 13th April 2009, which has just been bought to my attention. The content of the broadcast, and some reaction to it, can be located at http://epltalk.com/steven-cohen-blames-liverpool-fans-for-hillsborough-disaster/5915.

    As I am sure you will agree, the comments made by Mr Cohen are deeply upsetting and distressing, not to mention inaccurate and verging on liabless.

    As an avid Liverpool fan and knowing persons who were seriously hurt in the Hillborough incident, I am disgusted by the views of the presenter. I accept he may be entitled to his opinion, regardless of how ill-advised he may be, however this should never be aired to listeners in any way given his obvious ignornace to the facts. Mr Cohen has every right to hold a view on the incident, but no right to ill-inform his vast, worldwide audience of soccer fans, given his lack of factual knowledge about the events which occured on this sorrowful day in soccer’s history.

    I am sure that, as an iteligent and respected broadcaster, you will understand the need for a full possession of fact before opinion can be given, however the comments made show an evident disregard for this fact and drags the reputation of your broadcasts down to a real base level.

    I trust you will investigate this matter and deal with Mr Cohen in such a way that, despite this being a ‘third occurance’ of his ignorant views, they will not, finally, reappear to mislead and miseducate a worldwde audience.

    Yours,

    Pilot Officer Paul Heath RAF

    I ask ANYONE who feels strongly about this to email the broadcaster directly from the link on their homepage!

  121. Tampa Kopite says:

    Below is correspondance between myself and S. Cohen from this morning. The guy just doesn’t get it.

    On Apr 21, 2009, at 7:11 AM, TK wrote:
    Shame on you.
    How can you be so stupid? You completely disrespected the 96 football fans who lost their lives that day. You disrespected their memory, you disrespected their families.

    Would you have said the same thing if it was 96 Chelsea fans who lost their lives?

    Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 07:23:21 -0700 Steven Cohen wrote:
    Yes i would. This has nothing to do with club allegiance and that you think it is is the first downfall of your argument.

    I am not saying anyone went there with death in thier minds, and of course i will agree that the policing was utter rubbish, but it is not possible to blame simply one group.

    I have always maintained that the FA, the police, Sheffield, Hillsbrough and sorry to say it yes the fans contributed, in equal meassure i don’t know probably not, but they contributed to it. There is enough shared responsibility to go around and i am not sold by the Taylor report who puts all the blame on the Police etc…

    I am sorry if you are disturbed what i have said, i have been taken somewhat out of context, my position has always been that there is a shared responsibility between several groups.

    I made these comments on my radio show, a radio show that i own and i know everyone wants to get me fired but i own the show so i would have to fire myself.

    cheers,
    Steven

    On Apr 21, 2009, at 8:12 AM, TK wrote:
    I’m not arguing, I asked you a question. No matter how you look at it, what you said was very disrespectful. Whose fault it was is irrelevant at this point; the fact is 96 fans left home that day to go watch a football match and never returned. What you said was of bad taste and poor judgment.

    Frankly, I could give a s**t if you’re fired or own your own radio show or whatever. And I’ll be the first to admit that LFC fan’s aren’t all princes. All I’m saying is that a lot of kids listen to your show and you should be a little more careful with what you say.

    No matter whose responsibility, those people didn’t deserve to die. It was a tragedy that’s left a mark on many people, especially LFC supporters. Just pay your respects and move on with your show. No need to play the blame game.

    Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 011:28:21 Steven Cohen wrote:
    Of course they didn’t deserve to die and nobody has said that least/most of all me. Who do you take me for. I am just certsain and convinced that an episode like this does not happen without a confluence of parties all not meaning for the outcome but in some manner contributing to the outcome.

    This bloke who has posted these comments has taken much what i have said out of context and clearly has some axe to grind.

    FYI, i was in the military here, lost 248 friends and colleagues in a plane crash Dec 12th 1985 because the US Army were too cheap to make sure they were using reputible charter aircraft. I have had no problem blaming them for the loss i still carry with me.

    cheers,
    Steven

    End >>

  122. Chops says:

    Cohen is just a pure sh*tbag, would he go into the middle of Liverpool City Center and say the same things I don’t think so. He should be fired for bringing his employers name down along with his scumbag attitude towards Liverpool. He is just an ignorant pig typical bad attitude towards the world’s best known fans.

    If it had been his beloved Chelsea the shoe would be on the other foot, he probably has the same views for other disasters such as Bradford. He forgets that Chelsea were onceone of the worst set of fans for hooliganism.

    One word describes you Mr. Cohen….C*NT

  123. rednow.red4ever says:

    i generally dislike the man’s ideas, but or the last time:

    STEVEN COHEN IS BRITISH.

    So the next person that makes their own biased remarks about ‘yanks’ can get lost…

  124. Teabag says:

    To Liverpool fans :- Quit whining like little girls,just because somebody don’t agree with you,get over yourselves and move on ffs !

  125. Charmer says:

    Hey Chops ! Whats this ” the worlds best known fans ” bollox ?
    Liverpool fans best known for what ? If you mean murdering 39 football fans at Heysel,then yeah,youre spot on,you tit !

  126. Carl says:

    As a British Police Officer It is universally accepted here that Hillsborough was “Mis-Management” by Sheffield Police and is a case study of what not to do.
    Mr Cohen you will have offended an uncountable amount of people with your comments including the people who lost someone that day and the people who have died as a result of the tragedy your misinformation is painting an incorrect picture for your “fans”.

    You are the worst type of sensationalist.

    A disgrace.

  127. jim says:

    I wonder if Mr Cohen blames the Jewish people for causing the Holocaust?

  128. ArthurArseGooner says:

    can we please get an arsenal-liverpool article up? come on.

  129. esw says:

    Then again, with a last name like COHEN, it’s not surprising he’s intentionally stirring the pot.

  130. Dave says:

    It’s always the same isn’t it?
    I don’t know why I bother with the internet sometimes.

    Idiot says something disgraceful, and in response instead of rational dissection and reference to facts, half the people come on and saying something equally disgraceful. Then the internet lurkers who think it’s an opportunity to wind people up come on and are equally disgraceful.

    Heysel
    Liverpool fans are significantly to blame. No charge=no mass panic=no wall falling down=no deaths.
    The ground is also to blame directly – the wall shouldn’t have falled down.
    The Belgian authorities are to blame – the ground shouldn’t have been put forward as suitable.
    UEFA are to blame – the ground shouldn’t have been chosen.
    The police were to blame – because they did nothing to prevent the situation escalating, or fix it once it had.
    Juventus fans were to blame – a minority of their fans were also lobbing bottles/bricks etc.

    Hillsborough
    The police were to blame. Poor crowd control from the start, they didn’t ensure the pens were evenly filled, they opened the gate without closing the tunnel, they didn’t let emergency services in to help the dying.
    Sheffied Wednesday Football Club were to blame. The ground was unsafe – proven unsafe, it required excellent policing to overcome the lack of inherent saftey.
    The FA were to blame. They shouldn’t have chosen the ground – Old Trafford was more suitable in many ways, not least safety.
    Liverpool fans were not to blame – in any way. The only possible way you could blame Livverpool fans is to say the behaviour of the minority at Heysel helped form the view in the police’s mind that they were there not to ensure our safety, but to stop us causing trouble. Cages were there before Heysel, the Leppings Lane layout was there before Heysel.

    Now please, stop talking about the Holocaust. I’m not sure if there’s anti-semitic sentiment there or not, but either way, 6 million compared to 96 means it’s a ridiculous comparison.
    And stop coming on to score cheap points.

  131. wayne says:

    what a complete disgrace, in general what a complete d**khead, just reading
    some of his comments chill me to the bone, his hate for liverpool in general is
    mindblowing, just sitting there saying what he wants to say, to line his own
    pockets with dirty money. i dont know how? but this pratt needs to be sued.
    ah cohen whats next? did the holacost actually happen lets try and rattle you
    but then i have relised i dont want to be a scrumbag like you and i do not want to upset the jewish community, but you need to be taken off the air.

  132. Mad Alex says:

    Keep winding the scouse bin dippers up Stevie C la !

  133. Mark says:

    Liverpool do have some blame. That is what Cohen is saying and he is correct. That Pool fans don’t understand or don’t want to understand that they have some blame is their problem.

  134. Frank Vincent says:

    Very true Mark,but the fact is Liverpool fans will never admit to shouldering SOME of the blame in their part of the tragedy that was Hillsborough.
    That would mean them admitting their guilt,again,something they wont do.It’s too easy for them to lay the whole blame at somebody elses feet,they have previous where ” shifting the blame ” is concerned,never forget that.

  135. celticmark says:

    My god you people need to get a life

    Cohen has his opinion you have yours

    Respect the the 96 but stop blaming eveyone else take some blame yourself and move on

    Plenty of clubs have tragedy they don’t beat it over everyone”s head to not forget

  136. Paul S says:

    What this blog proves beyond a shadow of a doubt is that the Internet is a global village; unfortunately Chelsea “mad” Steve Cohen is the idol of all the village idiots, who unable to think for themselves, simply take his word for it, even when he is 100% wrong.

    As for Chelsea fans preaching about racism in football. Perhaps you can ask Steve Cohen why, being such a fanatical supporter of Chelsea, he is happy to turn a blind eye and a deaf ear to the disgusting Anti Semitic abuse that his fellow Chelsea fans are famous for throughout England?

    http://epltalk.com/chelsea-fans-voted-worst-behaved/2117

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2007/oct/28/newsstory.sport2

    http://www.thetimes.co.za/PrintEdition/Article.aspx?id=747190

    http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/david-baddiel-so-you-think-weve-kicked-racism-out-of-english-football-614251.html

    It is sad that American Football fans have to get their information on the wonderful game of football / soccer via such a lazy, discredited, obnoxious and ill informed moron. No UK station would touch him with a barge pole; in fact they probably wouldn’t touch him with a barge.

    He who is so wrapped up in all things Chelsea that he is willing to sit there like an idiot waving his plastic Chelsea flag while his fellow supporters give Nazi salutes and scream vile Anti Semitic songs about the millions who died in the concentration camps.

    What a sad pathetic excuse for a human being. What an embarrassment to the great name of Cohen.

  137. Jerry says:

    Comment by celticmark.

    “Plenty of clubs have tragedy they don’t beat it over everyone”s head to not forget”

    I can’t think of another tragedy involving a football club where innocent victims have to suffer an incessant stream of misinformation and lies.

    Nobody blames Bradford City fans for the fire that killed 56 of their fans, do they?

    If there hadn’t been a systematic attempt to cover up police culpability and shift blame to the victims, nobody would be trying to “beat you over the head” with the truth Mark.

    I’m sorry that it’s such an inconvenience to you, that some people aren’t prepared to hear despicable lies passed off as truth.

  138. Youallgotplayed says:

    Seriously, Steven Cohen is playing you all. It’s PR 101… I bet he’ll get a big raise from Fox for getting more people to comment/call in/watch.

    If you hate the guy, ignore him. Otherwise, you are helping him.

    Trust me.. he was a PR rep in a previously…

    One other note, he is not a news guy. He has opinions like the rest of us. Ask me about pool, united, chelski you’re going to get opinions you don’t like. When you consider him a legit source of information and not entertainment, it just helps his cause.

    my 2 cents.

  139. Youallgotplayed says:

    One more thing… Gaffer, nice work too. You obviously passed PR 101!

  140. Jerry says:

    Comment by Mark.

    “Liverpool do have some blame. That is what Cohen is saying and he is correct. That Pool fans don’t understand or don’t want to understand that they have some blame is their problem.”

    Please read the Taylor Report and then explain to me how Liverpool fans should take any blame for what happened at Hillsborough.

    I would appreciate it if you would refrain from taking Cohen’s cavalier approach in dismissing the Taylor Report simply because it discredits his baseless views.

    Saying that a handful of ticketless or drunk fans (and a handful, not thousands, is what the available evidence says – EVIDENCE, not hearsay) played any significant part in this tragedy, flies in the face of the conclusions of anyone who has thoroughly examined the events of that day.

    This is my biggest gripe with people like you and Cohen. You have nothing reliable to base your views on and expect people to weigh your opinoins equally with those of people who have studied the tragedy. The official conclusions are based on hours upon hours and thousands of pages of eye witness evidence. Your’s are based on nothing but innuendo and rumour.

  141. David says:

    You are exactly right with your opinion of that clown Steven Cohen. His comments about those events are disgusting and disgraceful, and I am an Evertonian. He spouts off all his garbage and vitriol to this largely American audience who are completely ignorant as to the events of Hillsborough, so all they do is call in and agree with him, just because some of these fools have this worship mentality of anyone on the radio. The thing is, all these Americans are ignorant as to why he feels this way about Liverpool, not the football club, but the city and the people who live there. They don’t have any understanding of the hatred that Londoners have for the northern cities like Liverpool. This is what drives his feelings, it’s prejudice, just as his thousands of jokes about how terrible the city of Liverpool is, that you can’t go there without getting robbed, etc. It’s just disgraceful, thanks for pointing out how I’ve been feeling. I’m done with that show, I don’t care if it’s the only football show on the radio, I can’t listen to that disgusting individual.

  142. Roger Hunt says:

    Hurt him in the pocket-call, email, fax every advertiser on his show, website etc and Fox Football Fone In and tell them Steven Cohen just cost them money and you (and your buddies) are taking your business elsewhere.

    They wanna know why send them the links to this page.

    Money is all this POS cares about.

  143. Johnny Red says:

    Who cares??? They were only scouser scum!!!

  144. mike says:

    say what you want about Steven, as a (impressionable, newbie) US fan of the game I take more offence to you loyalists calling us idiotic, impressionable children. Do you poeple think we just belive everything he says just because he as a british accent? The utter contempt you show other fans of “your” game is disterbing, no wonder your Empire as declined over the past 200 years. If we her somthing, most of us will reserch the facts before forming a opinion but it seems that if anyones opinion differs from livertonians then you’ll send death threats to them, their familys and the young step daughters. For christs sake, is that how you honor the 96? By spilling more inocent blood? From what I’v heard on the news and in thease blogs maby Mr. Cohen is right about the city at least.
    However wrong, misguilded or plain stupid Mr. Cohens opinion is, we still beleave in his right to have his own opinion and express it with out reprizal, and I thought you brits did to.
    And on a lighter note, I personaly can on;y stand about 1/2 to 1 hr of his poorly produced, comercial heavy show. I get my current events from 606, 5 live, world football phone in and the pirate ship.
    Love live Spoony!!
    Long live the Blue side of Manchester!!!

  145. Seve says:

    I can remember the paper planes thrown at Sir Matt, I can remember the songs, I can remember the ammonia sprayed at the United team at Anfield, I can remember the Ambulance with Alan Smith in being attacked, I can remember the excrement being thrown at me at Anfield, I can remember the Old Trafford being trashed by LFC fan in the FA cup, I can remember Athens, that Kid crying when that thing took his ticket.

    SCUM of the Earth, you really are, just think about it, then get a life.

  146. ArthurArseGooner says:

    dont forget the killing of juventus fans.

  147. LEKS says:

    You guys need to shut the f**k up!!!….
    Steven DONT APOLOGIZE…..screw them all…if after 20 years they failed to move on, then screw them all. Look at how they reacted to the government official during the anniversary…these ppl are muppets that only want to blame other ppl for their actions. MOVE THE F**K ON…

  148. shanks says:

    As a poster above here said send the links to the advertisers on http://www.worldsoccerdaily and Fox Football Fone in. Tell them why they lost your business and that you’re gonna tell all your friends and their friends etc etc

    http://epltalk.com/steven-cohen-blames-liverpool-fans-for-hillsborough-disaster/5915

    http://epltalk.com/steven-cohen-offers-liverpool-fans-no-hillsborough-apology

    NO MONEY=NO SHOW=NO COHEN-SIMPLE!!!!

  149. celticmark says:

    How are you going to get HIS show off the air he owns it

    You people really need to find somethimg more constructive to do with your time,like get a job.

    Cohen has his opinion he never said it was all the fans fault he said they need to take some blame , which from all i’m reading they refuse to do.

  150. Matt says:

    Frankly I think that’s really the motivation behind this – getting Cohen off the air. Funny that it should be EPL Talk – a program that is in direct competition with WSD for subscribers and listeners – stirring up this whole hornet’s nest.

  151. Malcolm says:

    Steven Cohen has the balls and courage to stand out and make an absolutely legitimate comment. It is his opinion and it is controversial – however I strongly suspect there is some serious truth in his assertions. Thus the hysterical reaction of some fans. Its pretty clear to see how cowardly some people react – including EPLTalk who are simply jumping on the bandwagon for business purposes. Sick and sad.

    Well done Steven – you have every right to stand up for your views.

  152. Paul S says:

    This smearing of Liverpool fans just never stops. I see the usual rabid bitter Mancs and right wing nazi supporting Chelsea morons etc have now joined in, laughably trying to take the moral high ground on fan behaviour.

    Arsenal and Chelsea fans have been singing about Auschwitz for decades.
    These are the same fans who hiss the sound of gas chambers at Spurs fans, because they have a large Jewish following, Why no condemnation from Steve Cohen?

    http://www.timeout.com/london/sport/features/4221/Anti-Semitism_in_football.html

    By the way, most fans are old enough to remember Manchester United fans, throwing bottles filled with urine, golf balls studded with nails, being attacked inside and outside the ground and at the railway stations.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army_(football)

    And what about all of those Manchester United and Chelsea supporting morons who sing that despicable paedophile song, it even references 4-year-old Madeline McCann. How big and brave.

    http://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/sport/Paper-talk-Fergie-plea-over.4674649.jp

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2008/nov/08/premierleague-arsenal

    As for Hillsborough, they sing 96 is not enough. 96 men women and children died at a football match, (the youngest to die at Hillsborough was aged 10).

    As for “getting over” Hillsborough, people would have gotten over it a long time ago if it hadn’t been for the vile lies perpetuated by scum like Steve Cohen and his inbred fan club

    You want self-pity? “Busby’s” babes were grown men not children and it happened 50 years ago. Manchester United fans whinge about the morons who sang about Munich in the seventies and eighties while setting up web sites selling T Shirts, hoodies and badges celebrating the 39 deaths at Heysel! They sing: “where’s your Munich song” (because it hardly gets sung any more), then they act all shocked when some moron sings it back to them. It then gives them the excuse to go into their bitter vile repertoire of disgusting songs. Steve Cohen must love you cowards and cretins for helping him pay the bills.

    George Orwell once said that sport was war by other means. Some of you idiots on here prove his point.

  153. Frank Vincent says:

    Paul S,what complete and utter shite you spout !
    Just have a look in your own backyard and see the death,destruction and misery caused at football grounds by Liverpool fans,yet no mention of any of this in your girly little rant at all and sundry.
    A typical Liverpool fan,blame every f**ker else but the s.c.u.m. who follow Liverpool.Thank f**k many people are now wise to Liverpool fans whining,bleating,about how hard done to they are.Self Pity City !
    For the record United fans don’t ” act all shocked ” when Liverpool fans,City fans,Leeds and Everton,amongst others sing the Munich,we are used to s.c.u.m singing it and have been for many years,it was being sung by Liverpool fans way before you had your own tragedy at Hilllsborough,caused in part by ticketless Liverpool fans storming the gate,like you always did.

  154. Jeremy says:

    Malcolm,

    You, like Steven are the coward.

    You post here that you “strongly suspect there is some serious truth in his assertions”, yet, like him, you offer absolutely no evidence, no proof. Guilt by assosiation, inuendo and conjecture. That’s the game you’re playing.

    Unless you’ve got some reliable EVIDENCE, for your “suspicions”, you and Steven should keep your opinions to yourselves. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions Malcolm, but not their own facts.

    The “hysterical reaction” of some fans stems from the frustration of 20 years of idiots like Steven Cohen conciously igoring the evidence and findings of a judicial inquiry and basing their “opinions” on lies and speculation.

    Steven is open about his contempt for all things Liverpool. The problem with contempt, is that it allows you to justify saying or doing anything about someone, regardless of the facts. That is why, in his warped mind, guilt at Heysel = guilt at Hillsborough. A moron could see that is a logical fallacy and both incidents should be judged seperately, but when you have contempt for someone, you have no compunction in treating them like dirt.

  155. Jeremy says:

    celticmark 04.23.09 at 9:29 am
    “How are you going to get HIS show off the air he owns it”

    How is going to broadcast his show, if we get Sirius Satelite to drop it? Or fund his show, if we get his sponsors to walk away?

    As to your final point – People who have been exonerated by a judicial inquiry, tend not want to take resonsibility for something they aren’t responsible for.

    What part of this are you having trouble grasping Mark? The overwhelming evidence and the findings of a judicial inquiry point, unequivocally to the innocence of Liverpool fans at Hillsborough. Yet you think they are being unreasonable for not accepting any blame.

    I really don’t understand your problem.

  156. Jeremy says:

    The comments of morons like Seve, Arthur ArseGooner and LEKS above, are the reason Steven thinks he can get away with this, because he has the support of drooling, ignorant Neanderthals.

    It’s also one of the reasons we won’t shut up until he stops repeating lies as truth.

    I don’t care what idiots like these guys think, but I do care about Steven’s specious weasel words that have the potential to influence many.

  157. Paul S says:

    Frank Vincent you sound like a typical Manchester United fan, bitter, twisted, one eyed and full of hate. Of course your lot never hurt any one right? Apart from the Manchester City fan stabbed to death last year by a Manchester United fan ( his excuse was that he was singing about the Munich air crash! So thats alright then). Your lot were one of the worst mobs during the dark days of the seventies and eighties and you know it. Heysel could just as easily happened to your scum if you had been good enough to get into Europe during those twenty six of feeling sorry for yourselves and taking it out on every one else.

    If you want a more balanced view of what led to Heysel you could do worse than read Brian Glanville’s article in the Times entitled “Heysel: the tragedy that should never have happened”

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/article432432.ece

    Or how about the views of a Juventus fan (note his summing up on the main reasons for the tragedy):

    http://bianconeri.tripod.com/heysel.html

    The families of the 39 who died at Heysel deserved to have a full enquiry into every aspect of what happened that day. The fact that they didn’t get it is a disgrace. Some of the perpetrators among the fans were brought to trial and charged with offences, even the police chief, however Uefa acted as if the organisation of the event, and the safety of those attending had absolutely nothing to do with them. What happened at Heysel happened at football grounds right across the UK and Europe throughout the Eighties, so please get off your high horse.

    Tell you what, if you are so concerned about Heysel then perhaps you may want to buy a t-shirt from this Manchester United fan site, all proceeds go to the families of the victims.

    http://images.google.co.uk/images?gbv=2&hl=en&sa=1&q=republikofmancunia+without+killing&btnG=Search+Images&aq=f&oq=

    Sorry, my mistake all proceeds go straight into the back pockets of a bunch of disgusting, insensitive, money grubbing, hypocritical, Mancunians, and pathetic Manchester United fans who would be enraged if somebody set up a web site to sell memorabilia taunting about the Munich Air crash. These items are almost as sick as that paedophile song Manchester United fans sing when playing Arsenal. You know, the one that has the verse about Madeline MCann. Manchester United fans have been in the sewer for so long now that you have lost all sense of how disgusting those songs and the T shirts and memorabilia are.

    As for Hillsborough, that had nothing to do with hooliganism, it was mismanagement from start to finish. A similar tragedy almost happened in April 1981 when Spurs played Wolves in the FA cup semi-final, (9 minutes and 9 seconds into the clip)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imYujpP7XMs

    Spurs fans can be seen climbing over the fences to escape being crushed. 38 spurs fans suffered crushing injuries that day. The authorities didn’t use Hillsborough for semi-finals for another Six years. In 1987 there was another incident involving fans being crushed. As pointed out in the Taylor Report, the ground was unsafe and didn’t have a valid safety certificate despite incidents of crushing at the very same end of the ground.

    In asking for the release of documentation relating to Hillsborough, the following was found pinned to the front of a statement from a police constable on duty at Hillsborough – it is a handwritten instruction from a senior officer.

    “LAST TWO PAGES REQUIRE AMENDING,” it notes. “….. HE ALSO STATES THAT PCS (POLICE CONSTABLES) WERE SAT DOWN CRYING WHEN THE FANS WERE CARRYING THE DEAD AND INJURED. THIS SHOWS THAT THEY WERE ORGANISED AND WE WERE NOT. HAVE [THE PC] REWRITE THE LAST TWO PAGES EXCLUDING POINTS MENTIONED.”

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/apr/13/hillsborough-disaster-police-south-yorkshire-liverpool

    That’s why the families are not giving up. There was a cover up by senior officers and an attempt to smear fans via anonymous leaks to the media. Unfortunately Steve Cohen bases all of his reports about Hillsborough on those smears, which have been well and truly demolished in the official Taylor Report.

    That biased fans like you still prefer to take your lead from uninformed cretins like Steve Cohen says a lot about how moronic and tribal some football fans can be.

    By the way Seve, if you ever met a real Manchester United fan you would wet yourself and cry for mummy. Grow up.

  158. Joe says:

    Many of you are missing the point.

    The criminal individuals responsible for causing violence at Heysel, which led to deaths as a result of part of the terracing collapsing, are guilty of at the very least manslaughter. No reasonable fan of LIverpool or any other team would dispute that those individuals deserved to be prosecuted and punished. Those who wish to emphasise the fact that they were Liverpool fans, by implication attempting to tarnish anyone who supports Liverpool, are very, very stupid indeed. The people who perpetrated those crimes were also white. Ergo by the logic of some of the unlettered morons on here all white people have some responsibility. They were also males. So why not blame all men? More pertinently they also happened to be English. I wonder how Steven Cohen would react if someone from Italy said to him “You English caused Heysel, you are responsible”. He’d say it had nothing to with him. Every team had a criminal hooligan element at this time, Liverpool included. Liverpool’s criminal hooligan element went on a rampage at a game in Brussels, and part of a stadium collapsed leading to a dreadful tragedy. It doesn’t matter whether Liverpool fans were worse than United fans at the time, or Chelsea, or Millwall or whoever. They alsmost certainly weren’t, but that is not the point. I don’t associate Steven Cohen with the Chelsea smile. That would be a distinct non sequitur.

    Jonty Trunder, Mark, LEKS, Steven Cohen and others
    Please explain logically, why any normal Liverpool fan should take a greater share of the blame for Heysel than any other fan of an English team. Or any other fan for that matter. How does it work? Are you guilty if you support another team that begins with an L? Does that include fans of Leicester? Or does it only apply to people inside the ground on the night? Or what about just those in Brussels on the day? Ruud Gullit was at the game. Does that make him guilty? Or could it be that maybe, just maybe, the people to blame are the individuals who caused the riot in th first place?

    HIllsborough on the other hand is different. The points made above do not apply. Why? Because the disaster, according to all authoritative, independent accounts, was not caused by fans. If Steven Cohen wishes to state his dislike for people going to matches without a ticket, fine. I would probably agree with him. If he wishes to state that any fan, from whatever club, that is “hell bent on getting in” to a ground without a ticket, then fair enough. But the reason why what he said needs a retraction, is because this was not the cause of the Hillsborough disaster. It was not even, according to Lord Taylor, a contributing factor. The above radio excerpt cannot by definition be taken out of context since it is uninterrupted and starts with Cohen saying words to the effect of “I wanted to bring another thing up..etc”. He states, unequivocally, that in his opinion fans without a ticket who were hell bent on getting in to the stadium were the CAUSE of the disaster. He could not have have stated this position more clearly. He even says, in unusually clear English, that but for those people without tickets, the disaster would not have happened. This is libelous.

    I see he later made a retraction that even if he was wrong about there being 6-8000, his point stands whatever the number.

    No. It doesn’t.

    6-8000 ticketless fans charging a turnstile would cause a disaster. 25 ticketless fans would not. He is entitled to say that those 25 fans were wrong to turn up without a ticket. He is not entitled to say that that is what caused the disaster any more than a chelsea fan turning up without a ticket at Stamford Bridge caused Hillsborough, or a music fan at Live Aid without a ticket caused the Hillsborough disaster.

    This is where the logic of his argument is exposed for what it is – prejudicial and hateful.

    And finally, something has to be said about the Munich songs accusation. I will now state some “facts” as Rafa likes to say.

    1) There are most probably a small minority of idiots who sing songs about Munich. As a Liverpool season ticket holder for fifteen years I can tell you that at Liverpool they are very, very small in number. If anyone does anything like that, they are immediately shouted down by the majority. The one or possibly two mental people who allegedly threw excrement on United fans would be included in this.

    2) Every single time Manchester United are on the television, every single time without fail, the fans are audibly heard singing a song, to the tune sloop John B, including the line “..without killing anyone, we won it three times”. I;m not saying it is a majority, and I don’t blame those who don’t sing it, but enough people do that it is audible at every single game.

    3) I challenge anyone, anyone whatsoever, to find a video of a game in the last 15 years where Liverpool fans are audibly singing about Munich. It is quite simply a myth that this still goes on in any great numbers.

  159. Bobby Paisley says:

    Liverpool fans in whinge,moan,whine,bitch shock ! When will you actually take any sort of responsibilty for the death,destruction and misery you have caused to thousands of innocent victims ?
    Lots of people would actually have some sympathy with you if you had the guts to admit your ticketless fans were PARTLY to blame for the Hillsborough tragedy,instaed you resort to type and shift the blame.
    Steve Cohen got a lot of what he said about Liverpool fans right,he’s probably been inundated with emails,threatening his life and that of his family,as that is what Liverpool fans do when their ackles are up.

  160. Joe says:

    Bobby Paisley, and others who can’t use the internet properly,

    pasted from wikipedia since it’s more than a couple of paragraphs and might be beyond your attention span

    ….

    There were accusations that the behaviour of the Liverpool fans contributed to the disaster. These centred around consumption of alcohol before the game and attempts to enter the ground without a ticket. Although Lord Taylor acknowledged that these aggravated the situation, they were only secondary factors.

    Witness estimates of the number of fans that were drunk varied from a minority to a large proportion of the crowd. Although it was clear that many fans had been drinking, Lord Taylor stated that most of them “were not drunk nor even the worse for drink”. He concluded that they only formed an exacerbating factor.

    The possibility of fans attempting to gain entry without tickets or with forgeries contributing to the disaster was also suggested. South Yorkshire Police also suggested that the late arrival of fans amounted to a conspiracy in order to gain entry without tickets. However, analysis of the electronic monitoring system, Health and Safety Executive analysis and eyewitness accounts showed that the total number of people who had already entered the Leppings Lane End was far below the capacity of the stand. Additionally, eye witness reports suggested that tickets were easily available on the day of the game, and that tickets for the Leppings Lane End were still on sale from Anfield until the day before the game. The report dismissed the conspiracy theory.

  161. Eric says:

    Sorry to say to everybody who is incensed and hell-bent on typing a nasty tirade to Steven Cohen, but, simply put, this is over. He has retracted his comment about the 6,000-8,000 fans, and acknowledged that he shouldn’t have pulled that figure out of thin air. You got a retracted statement and an admission of the friviolous broadcasting of a non-fact. That’s all you’re going to get. I’m not saying that to wind people up or get a whole horde of hate messages; I’m merely saying it because it’s the truth.

    Additionally, Steven Cohen is the CEO of the company that produces World Soccer Daily, so any messages sent to the company are effectively going straight to him.

    Before you go on a rant in reply to this post, take into consideration that I have said nothing about Hillsborough, have not expressed any opinion of Mr Cohen, and have not made any retaliatory remarks about anybody posting on here.

    This week-long drama has come to a close, and there is no use stirring it up again with threats, condescending clarifications, analyses, or anything else that keeps the Hillsborough disaster on the tips of tongues (or the ends of fingers, actually).

  162. Jeff says:

    Eric, you’re absolutely right, and so are some of you who said about “sharing the blame” for Hillsborough Disaster. The criminal hooligans who were responsible for clamming into a stadium without tickets like sardines, are just part of the problem; the FA officials who planned to plug the event at that stadium without reviewing some of the horrific details on some incidents that eventually foreshadowed the disaster, is another; then there was the police who handled the security rather poorly, was the other. There are plenty of blames for everyone who was linked to this disaster, so why insisting that it’s everyone else but Liverpool fans should be responsible for that? Don’t drown my thoughts and opinions just to appease those “scousers”. When I heard about that tragedy in Hong Kong back in 1989, I realized this debate could last a long time if someone decides to threaten others who have different opinions with their lives, particularly with who should be shouldered the blame. 20 years have gone by, the debate continues. I’m very disappointed with some of those listeners who are trying to silence those who have the courage to disagree with some certain section of Liverpool “supporters”.

  163. joe says:

    eric who says it’s come to a close? Does cohen own fox?

    Jeff what is wrong with you? Have you read anything about this?

  164. Bobby Paisley says:

    Joe,I don’t need to read the Taylor report or read Wikipedia to know THE TRUTH about what really happened at Hillsborough,THE TRUTH is SOME ticketless Liverpool fans arriving late,strormed the gate ( like they did in the CL final in Athens 2007 )causing the crush and the death of their fellow fans,they are as much to blame as the action of the Police on that fateful day.
    Nobody should die supporting their team and my heart goes out to those who did and their families left behind.
    But PART of the blame lies with Liverpool fans,as much as Liverpool fans try to deny it.

  165. Scott says:

    As sad as this story is, it is ludicrous to think that “newbie” US soccer fans cannot easily understand the issues and have an ability to assess where blame would lie. Even worse, it’s sad to think that there isn’t an ability to have good discourse on all sides of the issue w/out some of the threats and claims being made in places like this chat room. But worst of all is the fact that the 96 lives lost are being used as a shield to protect what is OBVIOUSLY the partial blame that some supporters should take onto themselves. Anyone can see that Cohen makes the right points and that people need to stop blaming everyone but these so called “fans” and make them also take some responsibility. Had there not been a rush of 8,000 Liverpool fans without tickets you wouldn’t have had this issue in the first place. Stone cold fact.

  166. Dave says:

    I would like to state my thanks to all on here (Mike Humphrey, Target Man, Mike (post 100), JD, Matt (post 107), Bill Shannon et al) who have tried to educate the misinformed, the ignorant and the bigoted.

    Dave, Liverpool

  167. Jacko says:

    Dave,so anybody who doesn’t agree with your view about events at Hillsborough,is uneducated,misinformed,ignorant and bigoted.Priceless !
    I’ve had many run ins with Liverpool fans over the years,I’m an ex Policeman.
    UEFA were spot on when they branded Liverpool fans ” the worst in Europe ” I’d go as far and say they’re the worst behaved fans in the world ! And that’s a fact !

  168. Dave says:

    Jacko
    Quote- ”Dave,so anybody who doesn’t agree with your view about events at Hillsborough,is uneducated,misinformed,ignorant and bigoted.Priceless !
    I’ve had many run ins with Liverpool fans over the years,I’m an ex Policeman”

    Hello, hello, hello, what IS going on here? I rest my case, M’Lud.

  169. RaiderRich2001 says:

    Congratulations Dave and friends on being tools of The Gaffer’s corporate sabotage of their rivals. He’s using your knee jerk reaction to the word “Hillsborough” to his financial advantage.

  170. Dave says:

    Incidentally Jacko, I have had many run-ins with the Police over the years, I’m a law-abiding citizen! …and if I was as small-minded as you appear to be, and chose to tar all Police with the same brush, would that not make me perhaps uneducated, possibly misinformed, occasionally ignorant, and maybe even bigoted? Get your own house in order first.

    Next.

  171. Joe says:

    Bobby Paisley – (is that your real name?)

    “like they did in the CL final in Athens 2007 )” -I was at Athens, this was about two people.

    “THE TRUTH is SOME ticketless Liverpool fans arriving late,strormed the gate”

    Evidence, evidence, evidence, evidence, evidence, evidence, evidence!!!!

    Please provide evidence.

    If you think you can make such serious statements, please back it up with some kind of evidence. Otherwise, people will assume you are educationally subnormal.

  172. Joe says:

    Jacko

    When you were a policeman, did you ever arrest anyone without any evidence? I hope not. Although evidence doesn’t seem very important to you. Either provide some evidence that Liverpool fans casued Hillsborough, or stop showing yourself up. You’re making yourself look a bit dim.

  173. The Gaffer says:

    Rich,

    I have not used the story for my own personal gain. I was simply stating the facts in an objective manner.

    In the meantime, I’m still waiting to hear from Cohen an admission that he was wrong, that he has retracted his statements and to hear an apology to his listeners and Liverpool fans.

    Cheers,
    The Gaffer

  174. RaiderRich2001 says:

    Motive: EPL Talk and World Soccer Daily have rival podcasts, except Mr. Cohen has a daily radio platform and weekly TV platform, things you clearly want, as evidenced by this statement:

    “Without a doubt, Cohen is the voice of soccer in America. Since the launch of his network in May 2002, Cohen has succeeded in growing World Soccer Daily into the must-listen show about soccer in the United States. Coupled with his weekly co-host slot on Fox Soccer Channel’s Fox Football Fone-In show, 46-year-old Cohen has built a sizeable following, many of whom are impressionable fans who are relatively new to the sport and hang on his every word.”

    And if Mr. Cohen were to have his sponsors pull their advertising due to boycotts and terroristic threats from Liverpool supporters, he loses his show, his podcast, and his website. You stand to benefit from that situation, whether you want to admit it or not.

    Furthermore, because of the competitive situation, you cannot simply claim your article was “objective,” anymore than a “fact” produced by Fox News or the tobacco industry can be considered “objective.”

    Means: Despite your claim that you incited nothing, the mere mention of Hillsborough is enough to incite Liverpool fans into a frenzy like mentioning gun control to an NRA lunatic or pointing out an abortion clinic to a right to lifer. You’re a soccer fan, you knew this was going to happen, so save us the pathetic ignorance plea.

    All you had to do was say that Rival X was making comments about Hillsborough, which you did, cite the Taylor Report, which you did, and compare him to The Sun, which you did, and let the Liverpool fans do the dirty work for you.

    Opportunity: Mr. Cohen opened his mouth. No further explanation needed.

    So you can make all your well-crafted apologies and the contrived after-the-fact condemnations you want. This is exactly what you wanted to happen. And no amount of post deleting, fake condemnations, sending your minions at MLS Talk and ducking World Soccer Daily will change that.

    Do I necessarily agree with Mr. Cohen 100% of the time? Hardly. He is hyper-critical of the MLS. He doesn’t understand why American sports are run the way they are run, particularly why American sports need a salary cap, and he doesn’t realize that many of the operating procedures of the MLS are based on the abject failure of the NASL to adopt a sustainable business model. But I don’t feel the need to incite terroristic threats against him or his sponsors.

  175. The Gaffer says:

    Rich,

    I listened to Cohen’s show on April 13th, and was repulsed by the comments he made. I decided to write an objective article about it and backed it up with facts (something which Cohen has still been unable to provide).

    I did not write the articles intentionally to gain anything from it other than to make the general public aware of the misinformation he had been spreading. If you don’t believe me, then I’m sorry.

    And I did not write the articles thinking or even knowing that Liverpool supporters would respond the way they did. But, as you can see, Cohen has touched a nerve with not only Liverpool supporters but supporters of other clubs from around the world who – along with me – refuse to sit back and let Cohen spread misinformation regarding Hillsborough. It’s time that someone stood up against his opinions which are very damaging to the American soccer public.

    I’ve been running EPL Talk since 2005 and have prided myself on writing informative articles regarding the Premier League and the media coverage of the league on a daily basis.

    Like I’ve said repeatedly, I will not be willing to go on World Soccer Daily until after Cohen admits he was wrong, retracts his statements and makes an apology to his listeners and Liverpool supporters.

    99% of the comments posted to EPL Talk are added to the site, uncensored. But your comments you posted this morning would be deemed as spam.

    Cheers,
    The Gaffer

  176. michael says:

    hey Gaffer you are a loser and we all know why you are doing this for. I hope everyone reads Rich’s comments so they can witness your true motive. You did this SIMPLY because you needed some extra attention and you realized that this site wasnt getting you enough of it. I hope you find success doing something productive withtin the football industry rather than trying to stir up trouble. CIAO CIAO FORZZA MILAN !

  177. Pakapala says:

    The Gaffer wrote:
    “But, as you can see, Cohen has touched a nerve with not only Liverpool supporters but supporters of other clubs from around the world who – along with me – refuse to sit back and let Cohen spread misinformation regarding Hillsborough. It’s time that someone stood up against his opinions which are very damaging to the American soccer public.”

    Can you be any more full of yourself & condenscending at the same time? His opinions are damaging to american soccer public. Why? do you think WSD is the gospel for american soccer fans? Get a hold of yourself! His opinion touched a nerve with supporters of other clubs from around the world? Again get a hold of yourself. The Hillsborough tragedy oversaturated coverage is practically non-existent outside of the UK. Ask fans of other clubs around the world and you might count on 1 hand the numbers who can tell you what Hillsborough tragedy is. Get a grip and get a life! It ain’t that important, except to Liverpool fans, and some others in England.

  178. pjgalactica says:

    I am kind of a newbie to the game and I am by no means an expert on the Hillsborough disaster; in fact this article has been the primary peace of research which I looked at on this subject. When I read through this article I realized that without question the police and the infrastructure created this disaster. That being said, concerning the issue of people showing up without tickets, I believe that you guys are missing the point. The numbers that were quoted made it sound like the stadium was at least filled to capacity if not overfilled and that is just with people who had tickets. So if any people did show up without tickets they would have pushed that number of people in the stadium over the limit. Let me start out by declaring my feelings about the issue, I should state my belief which is that if I snuck into a movie theater without a ticket and got I caught, I should face jail time. With that in mind, even though you report that it was only a small number of people who showed up without a ticket, if those people tried to get into the park without a ticket they are criminals, and should potentially face jail time, and I say this because those people mad the disaster caused by the police and the infrastructure worse. I don’t really see how this last point can be disputed, and if I am not mistaken isn’t this the point that Steven was trying to make. If I am wrong please tell me.

  179. Jaime says:

    You are not wrong pj. People like “The Gaffer” and Scousers will lead you to believe that you are. The thing is, people in the UK are technically not allowed to say it was the Scousers fault for fear of retribution by organisations set up after the disaster. If anyone speaks out about it they are attacked and discredited. They hide the fact that they are partially to blame by attacking anyone who disagrees with them. Its pretty sad actually. They, meaning some fans not the organisations, have also threatened Steven Cohen and his family with death threats and physical harm so you can see what I mean.

  180. The Gaffer says:

    Pakapala, World Soccer Daily is the most listened to show on soccer in the United States. So if he is broadcasting misinformation about Hillsborough to his listeners, those words are damaging to the American soccer public. Why? Because many of his listeners are young impressionable soccer fans who are learning about the cause of the Hillsborough Disaster through Cohen’s words.

    As for your opinion that the Hillsborough Disaster isn’t important unless you’re a Liverpool supporter or live in England, you’re seriously mistaken.

    PJGalactica, I’m glad you took the time to read the research. In answer to your point, yes, the Liverpool fans who got into the ground should have been caught and arrested. But even if you disregard those 24 fans, the Leppings Lane end was already overcrowded. The capacity of that terrace should have been less than what it was. Those ~24 fans did not cause the Hillsborough Disaster though. It was the inability of the police to control the crowd.

    The Hillsborough Disaster was a tragedy waiting to happen. Sheffield Wednesday knew it. So too did the Football Association. The largest amount of blame is in the hands of the South Yorkshire Police who made mistake after mistake that fateful day.

    Cheers,
    The Gaffer

  181. Joe says:

    pjgalactica

    Steven Cohen stated that there were 6-800 fans without a ticket hell bent on trying to get into the stadium and that without this the disaster would not have happened. There were possibly, at the very highest estimate from independent authorities, 24. However there is no way of knowing for certain that there were this many and the median estimate is much less, possibly none. The independent report stated that this was categorically not the cause of the disaster.

    The terrace as a whole was way below capacity at the time. Fans were directed into central pens instead of side pens which were empty. Have you ever stood on a busy terrace at a football match? It is nigh on impossible to tell what is going on at the other end of the terrace. Those fans who did notice were screaming for help. It is quite difficult to communicate and control several thousand people from within the middle of a terrace at a football match. How about if people watch the videos of thousands of fans running around with makeshift stretchers because ambulances had been turned away.

    Steven Cohen is more than happy to broadcast his “opinion” on what happened. You can often judge the quality of an argument by how much the argument changes. 1) Last week Cohen said HIllsborough had never encountered such problems before or since and used this as one of his arguments. This week he says that the stadium was one of the causes. 2) Last week Cohen said that there were 6-8000 fans without tickets hell bent on trying to get into the stadium. This week he didn’t mention that at all, merely stating that there were thousands of fans present, ergo they should share some of the blame. Remember last week he said that without the (non existent) ticketless fans the disaster would not have happened. Now he is saying that fans, merely by their presence would have to take a portion of the blame, he doesn’t know what percent, along with the police, the FA, the stadium etc. There was none of that last week. He has changed his argument almost totally and never offered a shred of evidence.

    The man does not know what he is talking about.

    Oh and if you want to know why Liverpool fans are “uppity” about this. Google “Sun newspaper hillsborough” .

    then read this excerpt from wikipedia

    In their history of The Sun, Peter Chippendale and Chris Horrie wrote:

    “As MacKenzie’s layout was seen by more and more people, a collective shudder ran through the office (but) MacKenzie’s dominance was so total there was nobody left in the organisation who could rein him in except Murdoch. (Everyone in the office) seemed paralysed, “looking like rabbits in the headlights”, as one hack described them. The error staring them in the face was too glaring. It obviously wasn’t a silly mistake; nor was it a simple oversight. Nobody really had any comment on it—they just took one look and went away shaking their heads in wonder at the enormity of it. It was a “classic smear”.

    Cheers

  182. Joe says:

    Jaime

    “The thing is, people in the UK are technically not allowed to say it was the Scousers fault for fear of retribution by organisations set up after the disaster.”

    You are perfectly at liberty to say it was the scousers fault. Er…some evidence please?

    I’m waiting…

  183. Jaime says:

    I know I am because I am currently in the US. Go to a scous bar or up to the Hillsborough Disaster organisations and say its the scous fault and see what happens. I made the mistake of doing that, to a group of Liverpool supporters over there, and nearly had my head kicked in. I forget the exact name but I do know someone involved in the Taylor Report had said that the fans were partially to blame, the name was Duckenfield or something like that, and his remarks were not noted because he was not under oath… Its instances like that which adds credence to my, and many’s, argument.

  184. Jaime says:

    Also what is currently happening with World Soccer Daily is a perfect example. He made his statements and now advertisers for the show are being contacted and fans are calling for them to stop advertising with the show. He has also had threats on his and his family’s lives. Proper fans the Scousers..

  185. Joe says:

    Jaime

    Guess what – I live in the Us too! Guess what else – there are exactly the same kind of free speech laws in almost every industrialised democracy in the world.

    Thanks for backing up your argument with Duckenfield.

    excerpt

    “Prosecutor Alun Jones QC told the court that Chief Superintendent David Duckenfield gave the order to open gates that allowed hundreds of fans to flood on to the already crowded terraces at the Sheffield Wednesday stadium. Mr Jones then stated that minutes after the disaster, [Duckenfield] “deceitfully and dishonestly” told senior FA officials that the supporters had forced the gate open themselves. Duckenfield admitted that he had lied about certain statements regarding the causes of the disaster. Several other officers, including Norman Bettison, were accused of manipulating evidence. Bettison was later to be appointed Chief Constable of Merseyside in controversial circumstances. The prosecution was abandoned when Duckenfield’s doctor declared him unfit to stand trial due to illness. Because he was unavailable, it was decided that it would be unfair to proceed with the charges against Bernard Murray. Duckenfield took medical retirement on a full police pension”

    Good one Jaime – you’re evidence is someone who has “admitted that he had lied about certain statements regarding the causes of the disaster.” Ooh – you’ve done it with this one. You’re so persuasive!

    Jaime – stop please. You’re making a fool of yourself. I almost feel bad.

  186. Jaime says:

    Nothing you post here will persuade me otherwise. Im not referring to the statements made about fans forcing the gates open. People before have claimed that people with false tickets and no tickets attempted, and succeeded, in getting into the stadium and helped cause the overcrowding which led to the deaths. That is common sense. How are fans who show up looking to get into the game ILLEGALLY not at any fault in this disaster. If anyone shows me proof of this, and not the Taylor Report because that is a load of Bollocks, then I may be inclined to change my stance. and I never said anything about lack of free speech in England. That doesnt change the fact that situations still arise where, like the very one debated here, are attacked and made to look like they are wrong so that no credence is given to what they say. So Joe – thank you for your statements. But please read what I say before you pick it apart.

  187. Joe says:

    Jaime

    “Nothing you post here will persuade me otherwise.”

    There you said it. You are impervious to reason and evidence.

    “How are fans who show up looking to get into the game ILLEGALLY not at any fault in this disaster.”

    a) which fans? b) the disaster was not caused by people without tickets getting into the ground. c) If you park your car ILLEGALLY on a US street then presumably you should share a portion of the blame.

    Please stop it now, while you have a shred of dignity. Otherwise… good post!

  188. Jaime says:

    You need to read up more on this disaster. It is a known fact that people without tickets and with forged tickets showed up to the stadium with the intention of getting in. If those fans do not show up none of this happen. And in regards to “Nothing will…” please read on in my post and I explain why I say that. And that analogy is horrible…I am obviously not the one being made to look like a fool.

  189. Jaime says:

    Thats the point I am tryng to make though. The Scousers will not admit that the people who showed up without valid tickets had nothing to do with the disaster and that only the police, FA, and stadium officials are to blame NOT the people who stormed into the stadium.

  190. Joe says:

    Jaime

    Why are you doing this to yourself?

    “You need to read up more on this disaster. It is a known fact that people without tickets and with forged tickets showed up to the stadium with the intention of getting in.”

    Ok seriously now you have got to be kidding. Sources please?

    Again the Taylor report (he was a rugby fan),

    “The possibility of fans attempting to gain entry without tickets or with forgeries contributing to the disaster was also suggested. South Yorkshire Police also suggested that the late arrival of fans amounted to a conspiracy in order to gain entry without tickets. However, analysis of the electronic monitoring system, Health and Safety Executive analysis and eyewitness accounts showed that the total number of people who had already entered the Leppings Lane End was far below the capacity of the stand. Additionally, eye witness reports suggested that tickets were easily available on the day of the game, and that tickets for the Leppings Lane End were still on sale from Anfield until the day before the game. The report dismissed the conspiracy theory.”

    Keep it coming Jaime – you’re doing a better job making your side of the argument look stupid than anyone else ever could.

    Cheers

  191. Jaime says:

    Its not a matter of sources mate! If you knew anything about football youd know that fans, and more often then not Liverpool ones, show up with forged tickets and Hillsborough was no different. Its just common knowledge. It happened recently in 2007 in Athens when Liverpool fans with legitimate tickets were not able to get in because thousands showed up with fakes. It is no surprise that Scousers have been deemed the worst fans in Eurpope. If all you can cite is the Taylor Report then good for you. Thats what started this whole debate so if thats all the evidence you have then Im done. Use your brain mate…

  192. EcuaAlexa says:

    Why is it so horrible to say that the fans might have had some blaim in overcrowding, when the tragedy was a result of overcrowding? That makes no sense.

    The hatred spewed towards Cohen helps no one. It doesn’t help the victims of the families.

    It’s just hatred for hatred’s sake. He’s not asking anyone to believe him. He’s just stating an opinion. It’s called freedom of speech.

  193. EcuaAlexa says:

    Also – if anything happens to Cohen and/or his family, the blood is on your hands.

    You want a soundboard? That’s the price.

  194. The Gaffer says:

    EcuaAlexa, don’t be so bloody ridiculous. I do not condone the despicable calls and e-mails made to Cohen and have voiced my horror at those types of opinions expressed, which do not represent the views of EPL Talk. Please stop regurgitating the words of Cohen.

    The tragedy was not a result of overcrowding. It was a result of failure of police control. The central pen was overcrowded but the pen to the left and to the right had plenty of room for supporters. The police made the grave mistake of not trying to direct the supporters away from the central pen.

    Cheers,
    The Gaffer

  195. Jaime says:

    You voiced your horror yet still wont call the show and say it yourself…really admirable. It shows you really do care. You cannot deny that your posts, Gaffer, are the reason the threats have been made. Had you not posted them none of this would have happened and we would not be having any of these discussions. So to say you are not partially at fault is neive and juvenile. Sort of has parallels to other events.

  196. The Gaffer says:

    Jaime, again I do not condone the threats that were made. But the alleged threats that were made were not because of my articles. They were probably because of the misinformation that Cohen spread from his April 13th episode of WSD. I am not at partial fault. I’m not at fault.

    Cheers,
    The Gaffer

  197. Jaime says:

    They were not because of your articles? Mate are you serious? How can you possibily deny that your articles have nothing to do with it? It was just a coincidence that you write them and the threats started. You are unbelievable you know it? No matter what you say you are at fault. You can sit there and deny it but you know it is. And I may be “regurgutating the words of Cohen” but if anything happens the blood is on your hands. Youre a bloody disgrace.

  198. joe says:

    jaime

    The gaffer quoted him directly. What is wrong with that?

    Also I was at Athens. There were rumours, after the event, of a small minority of fans trying to get in without tickets.
    It was perhaps two or three idiots.

    Do your conscience a favour and knock it on the head.

  199. Jaime says:

    It was not a rumor. It was all over the news, investigations were made and it was found that more then “two or three”. If you were actually there you would know that. All you need to do is a google search for that one. Youre just a Liverpool fan, you can say youre not but its obvious you are, who doesnt want to admit youre wrong. Its fine mate.

  200. Jimmy James says:

    in regards to the gaffer believing his articles had nothing to do with the death threats: that is odd, since i have listened to WSD for 4 years now, and I have known about Cohen’s despicable Hillsborough stance because he makes it known every 6 months or so. Yes, the 20th anniversary brought his views out more than usual this time, but so did your articles.

  201. Paul S says:

    Jaime, you and your Manc mate Seve, and all of the other Cohen groupies, like Bobby Paisley need to open your eyes and ears and stop taking everything that idiots like Steve Cohen say as gospel.

    http://www.hfdinfo.com/

    As for you Scott, you state: “As sad as this story is, it is ludicrous to think that “newbie” US soccer fans cannot easily understand the issues and have an ability to assess where blame would lie…. Had there not been a rush of 8,000 Liverpool fans without tickets you wouldn’t have had this issue in the first place. Stone cold fact.”

    You have shown by that statement that you have no idea about the issues or where blame would lie.

    Making up facts and figures and pulling numbers out of thin air without any evidence or proof whatsoever to back them up is what Steve Cohen does all the time. You are obviously his target audience. If you have the evidence to back up that disgusting smear then please post a link to this stone cold fact.

    You can’t, because it’s a lie!

    Anyway, as a football fan, I am sick of “newbie” soccer fans and bitter twisted hard core Man Utd and Chelsea fans taking the moral high ground on the behaviour of Liverpool fans.

    Manchester Utd fans sing songs about paedophilia and the abduction of Madeline McCann, they sing songs about Heysel, songs about Hillsborough, the list is endless, they sell t-shirts and memorabilia online celebrating tragedies. Check Mr republikofmancunias website if you don’t believe me.

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/78965-ferguson-compares-arsenal-manager-songs-with-munich-chants

    Steve Cohen is the worst for this. He barely mentions the Chelsea ( and Arsenal) scum who sing about the gas chambers at Belsen and Auschwitz, who sing anti semitic songs and make Hitler salutes at football matches. You would think it would be a major concern to him, but no, apparently that’s not worth publicising. Could it be because it concerns his beloved Chelsea? With a venerable name like Cohen, you would think that the bile and hatred he reserves for Liverpool fans would be better directed at his fellow Chelsea fans.

    By the way, any death threats made against Steve Cohen, or any one else should be handed over to the police, end of story.

    However, he and his idiot fan club should not whinge and whine when people fight back against his vile lies and abusive remarks on Hillsborough. He is the real coward for abusing his position and allowing his prejudices rule his head.

  202. joe says:

    jaime

    I am a Liverpool fan. I was in Athens. The small number of people who tried to get in without tickets are scum. Ticketless fans were not the cause of the hillsborough disaster.

    It is clear that you are a bit simple.

  203. celticmark says:

    Ok how about this the rest of the world take blame for all thats gone bad at liverpool ,liverpool is off the hook for everything it was someone elses fault ( hillsborough , heysel, athens, etc.)
    We are all sorry Liverpool can you forgive us?

  204. Gaz says:

    I’m not sure why we’re still talking about this.

    Either you’re intelligent and realize that a few ticket less fans couldn’t have caused so many deaths (and that it was poor stadium management to put so many people in one pen when others were open) OR you’re blinded by colours and ignore facts.

    Paul S said it perfectly when he mentioned all the vile things other clubs do that don’t get mentioned on the radio show.

  205. niceltic says:

    celticmark are you really a celtic fan? you seem completely out of touch with the real celtic fans who actually go the matches.

    http://www.celticprogrammesonline.com/PROGRAMME%20COVERS/0607/rangers/images/Justice4The96.jpg

    YNWA liverpool fans.
    Justice for the 96.

  206. LA Red says:

    JAMIE – You are Steven Cohen, and I claim my $10!

    This is getting ludicrous now. Too many kids on here spouting or believing lies fed to them by the likes of murdochs media or the Cohens of this world.
    This Jamie lad is full of facts. Jamie I was there on that day and obviously you weren’t, probably not even born to be exact. I don’t know if you’ve ever been to a game, but particulay a high profile game you will find all the pubs close to the ground full, numbers of people selling or looking for tickets around the ground. This was nothing new, still to this day you will see this happen.

  207. Paul Bestall says:

    Jamie so it’s common knowledge? What a spurious, unfounded tissue of lies you spread. It’s not, it was only ever used as an excuse by Duckenfield and his mob to protect themselves.
    In the police report of the day it states that there WERE NOT large numbers of ticketless fans at the ground. That’s the police report.
    Where do you get your information from, wikipedia?

  208. Kate says:

    for those of you saying gaffer posted it for his benefit I hate to break this to you but us liverpool fans are well aware of this so called man steven cohen and it was are pressure that forced the sorry from him back the last time he talked his rubbish look the fact that you are missing is that in the uk the lies by the police by the sun newspaper are still to this day by some believed while the official inquire that looked into it put all the blame on the police

    as liverpool manager Kenny dalglish said to some guy from the sun newspaper the weeks after the disaster and there lies he was asked we know we were wrong what can we do to put it right

    kenny answer print a front page article with the words we lied as big as you had the truth then tell the facts

    the answer he got we cannot do that

    you see a massive part of the justice campaign is not only having the ones responsibility held to account which no one ever has been its about ended this idea that the sun and the police started that liverpool fans are the worse of the worse a few that is sadly still held by some in the uk and this so called man steven cohen

  209. Kate says:

    on his point about his sponser well here is a letter a lfc fan got and posted it on lfc.tv

    Dear Paul

    Thank you for your email and for bringing Steven Cohen’s comments on World Soccer Daily to our attention. Needless to say we were shocked and upset at what he said. We cannot condone such flagrant disregard of the facts of one of the UK’s biggest football tragedies and, as a result, we have now severed our relationship with the radio station.

    Unfortunately our latest issue was printed last week, too late to remove advertising for the show from the magazine, but I assure you that it will not feature in future.

    FourFourTwo has always been a magazine for football fans written by football fans and we pride ourselves on the accuracy of our reporting. As such, I would draw your attention to a blog posted on FourFourTwo.com last week to mark the 20th anniversary of Hillsborough. Hopefully this will illustrate our own views on the subject.

    http://fourfourtwo.com/blogs/fourfou…n-s-story.aspx

    Yours sincerely,

    Ollie

    see even they know the facts and dont want anything to do with this fool

  210. Matt says:

    I do agree with Mr Cohen to some extend.
    I am doing a dissertation on crowd safety, I have read both Taylor Reports, and the Interim report (1st one) does also suggest that Liverpool fans were openingly urinating on houses and private gardens outside and inside the ground, it was also mentioned that some throwing beer cans and were trying to push PC Marshall off the wall as he was trying to find the root cause of the conjestion outside the turnstiles. I know it says the gate was opened up police instruction, but it does say prior to that, that 150 fans surged in, when police had opened gate C temporarily to eject a youth who climbed over and was ticketless.
    I’m not saying Liverpool fans are to blame but they need to start taking some responsibility. Also peoples comments on here have suggested that its easy to believe the lies thats scattered around everywhere, what lies? I have been researching for months on end and the only article that says about drunken Liverpool fans is the Taylor report and of course ‘The Sun’.
    Also to Cohens letter he wrote back to that guy in Florida. I think its absolutley discrasefull how you can throw shit at Man Utd fans, and I have heard this story from another source aswell, a steward at Anfield in fact when I visited in 2007. I also agree with the 6-8,000 ticketless fans turning up. I know it was alot easier to sneak in back then, then it is now but still taking that many over the pennines is ridiculous. Also the 2007 Champions League final shows what Liverpools reputation is like when men are stealing tickets of their own fans, some of which kids! and do I have to mention about Heysel?? Justice for the 96? what about justice for the 39?

  211. Jaime says:

    LA Red – I am not Cohen. Im pretty sure he wouldnt post on here…he has a show to voice his opinions, as you all well know. And while yes I was born then, I was not of any age to remember anything. That doesnt change the fact that I can have my own opinion. And yes I have been to high-profile matches. Having grown up in London, and gowing back every year to visit my family, I know what happens during matches. But while we are on here making assumptions…you must attend a lot of “high-profile” matches there in LA. Ive heard those galaxy games get pretty crazy.

  212. Joe says:

    Matt

    It’s a shame you had to write that, and if you are indeed doing a dissertation on crowd safety I suggest you reread the Taylor report.

    “Liverpool fans were openingly urinating on houses and private gardens outside and inside the ground, it was also mentioned that some throwing beer cans and were trying to push PC Marshall off the wall”

    Firstly, find me a football match in the 80s where a minority of fans of any team did not do this. Secondly, this had nothing to do with causing the disaster.

    Taylor Report paragraph 196.
    “I am satisfied on the evidence, however, that the great majority were not drunk nor even the worse for drink…In my view certain officers, seeking to rationalise their loss of control, overestimated the drunken element in the crowd…The more convincing police witnesses including especially Detective Superintendent Mckay and Chief Inspector Creaser as well as a number of responsible civilian witnesses, were right in describing this element (fans who had been drinking) as a minority…There was no criticism of the crowd in the period up to 2.35pm..the crisis developed because this very large crowd became packed into a confined turnstile area and it’s very density hampered it’s passage through the turnstiles.”

    “I know it says the gate was opened up police instruction, but it does say prior to that, that 150 fans surged in, when police had opened gate C temporarily to eject a youth who climbed over and was ticketless.”

    Yes – and why did those 150 fans surge in? In the next section please make special note of the word “escape”.

    Paragraph 66
    Between 2.40pm and 2.45pm the crowd inside and outside the turnstile approach had swelled to over 5000. At the head of the phalanx conditions had become intolerable. Those who got through were short of breath and sweating profusely. Many complained to police officers on the concourse inside the turnstiles and asked them in forceful terms to do something.

    Paragraph 72.
    “Gate 3 sprang open under the intense pressure from within. An officer quickly closed it. Shortly afterwards it sprang again; officers tried to shut it. Those seeking to ESCAPE were urged and pushed back. ”

    Paragraph 67
    At 2.48pm..gate C opened to eject a youth who had climbed in without a ticket. Immediately fans outside took advantage and about 150 managed to get in…”
    “I also agree with the 6-8,000 ticketless fans turning up.”

    Almost all of those fans certainly had tickets, and were not trying to gain free entry. They were escaping for their lives.

    “I also agree with the 6-8,000 ticketless fans turning up. I know it was a lot easier to sneak in back then”

    Again, this is way, way off. Even Steven Cohen has acknowledged this.

    Paragraph 200
    “the police witnesses who most impressed me did not consider the number of ticketless fans to be inappropriately large. This accords with two other sources of evidence.”

    Paragraph 201
    “First, there was a wide range of witnesses who observed inside the ground that the Liverpool end was at a late stage well below capacity save for pens 3 and 4. ..wing pens were sparse…The match being a sell out, there were clearly many ticket holders to come, and they could account for the large crowd still outside the turnstiles. Had the liverpool end been full by 2.40pm one could have inferred that much or most of the large crowd outside lacked tickets.”

    Paragraph 202
    “Secondly, such figures as are available from the clubs electronic monitoring system and from analyses by the HSE suggests that no great number entered without tickets. They show that the number who passed through turnstiles A to G plus those who had entered through the gate C roughly equalled the terrace capacity for which tickets had been sold…. The figures do suggest that there was not a very significant body of ticketless fans in the crowd which built up.”

    “Also the 2007 Champions League final shows what Liverpools reputation is like”

    When people continually get the facts wrong, or refer to non-relevant unassociated information, it’s no wonder there is a “reputation”.

    Thanks

    Joe

  213. Matt says:

    Ok firsty thanks for pointing that out Joe. (also anything I said wasn’t directly quoted from the Taylor Report).

    Like I said I have read all of the Taylor Report and the majority of the paragraphs you have quoted above I have recognised for my writing. Maybe I didn’t phrase my opinion properly, I know the police were a major fault, and Hillsborough was waiting to happen, when I say Hillsborough I mean the disaster not the stadium, there were alot of stadiums over the country which were in bad states.

    As you have done with your previous comment joe, would you be able to find me some information that Liverpool fans didn’t have counterfeit tickets and weren’t robbing tickets off there own fans as I haven’t researched this in full depth yet!

    Taylors final report should of happened a lot sooner, and grounds should of been made a lot safer before this incident took place. I feel happy I can take my 10 year old brother to football without being worried about him getting crushed, its just a shame lots of lives had to be lost to achieve this!

  214. Philip says:

    I cant be bothered to read all these comments but to think Steven Cohen knows nothing about foootball because he resides in the US is quite honestly an awful indictment on your intelligence and shows you know nothing about football exposure in the U.S. He may not have been at Hillsborough and i do agree that the police have to take a lot of the blame but Steven Cohen is not the only person that thinks liverpool fans have been a disgrace both home and abroad, Michel Platini would agree, or does he know nothing football too? The British Government have been killing innocent people in Northern Ireland for years and if you think that they will ever release a document that accepts responsibility then the families have not once looked at precedent and realised it will never happen. 96 people died, regardless of who you support it was a terrible terrible tragedy and anybody going to football then will tell you, it was waiting to happen. Sadly 3 weeks later at the cup final, Liverpool fans where scaling the turnstiles at Wembley, when it comes to disrespecting the dead, well many of your own are not exonerable.

  215. Matt says:

    Philip…
    can you tell me more about the fa cup final in 1989? or can anyone, ive tried to look up the issue at the turnstiles but can’t find anything anywhere!
    thanks

  216. Philip says:

    They repeated exaclty the same faux pas at the cup final that was the root cause of Hillsorough. Ticketless supporters scaled turnstiles and forced their way in. Yes the police where to blame but just as emphatically where the liverpool fans

  217. terry says:

    philip you’re a misguided w*nker

  218. Philip says:

    I honestly dont possess the lexicon to describe my contempt for the morons who asked sponsors to boycott an opinion based radio station because they dont subscribe to the repugnant rhetoric that Liverpool fans where totally exonerable from blame in the deaths of 96 of their own people. I know most scousers have no idea what it takes to make a living but what if someone stopped the dole because the government believed they’re the worst fans in europe. Michel Platini rightly labelled them that, he was at Heysel and knows more about football than idiots on here will ever know. Hillsborough was accident, Heysel was mass murder. Absolute vermin

  219. Matt says:

    Thanks Philip, and completely agreed with your last comment!

    Terry, grow up, I’m a chelsea fan and of course sing songs about the yids but try and be a bit more ‘on the subject’ yeah!

  220. Joe says:

    Philip

    Wow, your post there wasn’t tinged by prejudice much was it?

    “that was the root cause of Hillsorough. Ticketless supporters scaled turnstiles and forced their way in.”

    Seemingly Philip you are incapable of reading. But I’m happy to post this info again.

    Taylor Report Paragraph 200
    “the police witnesses who most impressed me did not consider the number of ticketless fans to be inappropriately large. This accords with two other sources of evidence.”

    Paragraph 201
    “First, there was a wide range of witnesses who observed inside the ground that the Liverpool end was at a late stage well below capacity save for pens 3 and 4. ..wing pens were sparse…The match being a sell out, there were clearly many ticket holders to come, and they could account for the large crowd still outside the turnstiles. Had the liverpool end been full by 2.40pm one could have inferred that much or most of the large crowd outside lacked tickets.”

    Paragraph 202
    “Secondly, such figures as are available from the clubs electronic monitoring system and from analyses by the HSE suggests that no great number entered without tickets. They show that the number who passed through turnstiles A to G plus those who had entered through the gate C roughly equalled the terrace capacity for which tickets had been sold…. The figures do suggest that there was not a very significant body of ticketless fans in the crowd which built up.”

    So it had nothing to do with fans trying to get in without tickets. To insist that it was is to show that you don’t know what you are talking about. A brief summary of what WAS the cause follows

    First some background on the kind of crowd control policy that was used

    Talyor Report Paragraph 175
    “Over the years, spectators have come to accept conditions which are often very uncomfortable and not infrequently downright dangerous. They are subjected to buffering and squeezing to get in and out of the terraces. They are packed tightly and exposed to surging and swaying during the match. They put up with these conditions because they are devoted to the game and there is little they can do about them. They believe the discomfort will pass and nothing untoward will happen. Usually that is the case and they are reassured by it…The practice (of football clubs) has been to pack them in on the assumption that if they are prepared to put up with it the conditions must be tolerable.”

    Paragraph 180
    “The tendency has been to allow the pens to fill until the fans complain or show signs of discomfort. If the density at the front appeared less than at the back, the Tannoy would announce fans to move forward to make room for more. The evidence before the enquiry..shows there have been frequent occasions when the packing on terraces, not only at Hillsborough, has caused discomfort and sometimes, for brief periods, fear. Usually the surge recedes, the sway returns, the pressure eases and the incident passes unrecorded.”

    And now what actually happened in this case…

    Paragraph 62
    “Up to this time (2.30 pm), despite the large mass outside the turnstiles and the numbers still approaching, there was still no panic in the crowd; no perception of crisis by the police. In the control room Mr Murray, who could see Leppings lane on the video, advised Chief Superintendent Duckenfield that they would get everyone in by 3.00 pm. Mr Duckenfield reaffirmed the policy about a delayed kickoff. It would be ordered only if there was some major external factor such as fog on the Pennines or delay on the motorway, not if spectators merely turned up late in large numbers….(from paragraph 192) Whether those who arrived late was much debated. The ticket simply required it’s holder to take up his position 15 minutes before kick off.”

    Paragraph 197
    “Superintendent Marshall and other officers criticised the crowd as uncooperative because police exhortations to stop pushing and to ease back were not heeded. How could they be? In that crush most people had no control over their movements at all. Two incidents with police horses illustrate the point…there were eyewitness accounts of a horse being physically lifted off it’s feet by the crowd. That occurred, as the police accepted, without malice or intent but as an involuntary consequence of crowd pressure which those by the horse’s flanks could not resist any more than the horse itself.”

    Paragraph 64
    “Meanwhile the crowd grew at the leppings lane entrance. As more arrived at the back the crush grew worse. Entry to the turnstiles became more difficult…Arrivals at the back exceeded deliveries through the turnstiles, so the build up increased. The mounted officers were surrounded by a dense mass of people and became ineffective.”

    Paragraph 66
    “It was clear the crowd could not pass through the turnstiles by 3.00pm. Police constable Buxton radioed from the Landrover to control asking that kickoff be postponed. The suggestion was acknowledged but rejected.”

    Paragraph 231
    “Planning apart, it should have been clear in the control room where there was a view of the pens and of the crowd at the turnstiles that the tunnel had to be closed. If orders has been given to that effect when gate C was opened the fans could have been directed to the empty areas of the wings and this disaster could still have been avoided. Failure to give that order was blunder of the first magnitude.”

    For those that could get inside the stadium, read the following

    Paragraph 44
    “Those entering through turnstiles A to G had three options once inside the ground. They could by moving to the right go round the south end of the west stand and gain entry into pens 1 and 2. They could go through the gap in the dividing wall towards the concourse behind turnstiles 11 to 16 and then round the north end of the west stand into pens 6 and 7. However there were no conspicuous signs inviting them to take either of those courses. The obvious way was straight ahead of the turnstiles where a tunnel under the middle of the west stand gave access to pens 3 and 4. Above the entrance in large letters was the word “Standing” and a large letter B. Thus B ticket holders were drawn towards the tunnel.”

    Paragraph 171
    “At Cup semi finals.. all the pens were opened from the start and the policy was to let fans “find their own level”. This phrase was repeated again and again by police officers at the inquiry. What it meant was that no specific direction was given to fans entering through the turnstiles. They were free to go wherever they wished on the terraces. If they became uncomfortable or wished for any other reason to move their position, then theoretically they could move elsewhere. In this was it was hoped that the fans on the terraces would level themselves out and that the distribution would be achieved without police intervention. On these occasions the gates at the top of the radial fences were locked in the open position. It was sought to argue, therefore, that there was freedom of movement from one pen to another enabling fans to “find their level”.”

    Paragraph 172
    “This argument was bad both in theory and in practice, In theory, the whole object of radial fences had been to achieve even distribution by directing fans into desired positions. To say then that they could move freely from one pen to another would defeat the object and enable fans to go from a less popular to a more popular area without inhibition. In practice this did not happen because the position and size of the gates was such that once a substantial number of spectators were in, the gates were unnoticeable and inaccessible especially to those towards the front who might have most need of them”.

    Paragraph 183
    “…Whilst in theory the police would intervene if a pen became “full”, in practice they permitted the test of fullness to be what the fans would tolerate”.

    Paragraph 184
    “By 2.52 pm when gate C was opened, pens 3 and 4 were over-full even by this test. Many were uncomfortable. To allow any more into those pens was likely to cause injuries; to allow in a large stream was courting disaster.”

    Paragraph 244
    “..pens 3 and 4 were becoming more and more crowded…fans were showing and signalling distress. none of this was seen or recognised in the control room”.

    Paragraph 250
    “Mr Motson, the BBC commentator, recognised and said that the trouble seemed to be overcrowding and not misbehaviour.”

    Paragraph 255
    “Many fans who escaped onto the pitch alive were in a state of collapse or close to it. Most of those who retained their strength strove magnificently to assist the victims. They helped pull them clear; they helped with first aid; they helped carry the improvised stretchers.”

    Paragraph 257
    “Before this inquiry began, there were stories reported in the press, and said to have emanated from police officers present at the match, of “mass drunkenness”. It was said that drunken fans urinated on the police while they were pulling the dead and injured out, that others had even urinated on the bodies of the dead and stolen their belongings. Not a single witness was called before the inquiry to support any of those allegations though every opportunity was afforded for any of the represented parties to have any witness called whom they wished. Those who made ‘the allegations’ would have done better to hold their peace.”

    Paragraph 279
    “In all some 65 police officers gave oral evidence at the inquiry, Sadly I must report that for the most part the quality of their evidence was in inverse proportion to their rank.”

    Paragraph 280
    “With some notable exceptions, the senior police officers in command were defensive and evasive witnesses.”

    Paragraph 283
    “Most surprisingly he (Chief Superintendent David Duckenfield) gave Mr Kelly and others reason to think there had been an inrush due to Liverpool fans forcing open a gate. This was not only untruthful, it set off a widely reported allegation against the supporters which caused grave offence and distress.”

    Paragraph 285
    “It is a matter of regret that at the hearing, and in their submissions, The South Yorkshire Police were not prepared to concede they were in any respect at fault in what had occurred”.

    I would strongly advise anyone who cares about the sport of football to read the Taylor report. Unquestionably, some fans wee guilty of despicable behaviour before during and after this incident, and not just Liverpool fans. To suggest however, that the behaviour of Liverpool fans was the cause of this disaster is flat out wrong.

    If anyone else wishes to invoke the notion that Cohen has freedom of speech, is entitled to an opinion, that America is a free country or any other such defence, then they must also extend that freedom to those who object. If Cohen uses free speech as a justification for what he has said, it is profoundly contradictory to then castigate the host of this web site for speaking out in disagreement. It also a fundamental right of anyone who so wishes to not listen to his show any more, and to write to his sponsors informing them of what was said.

    Cheers

    Joe

  221. Matt says:

    Joe, do you recon you can stop quoting the Taylor report and actually think what a disaster is. It can be a group of different causes coming together to create the effect.

    yes the taylor report says that there should of been a filtering system outside the ground.
    yes the tunnel should of been locked off when gate C was opened.
    and yes Duckenfield should of seen that Liverpool fans were in distress, even before gate C was opened.

    But people are going to say this time and time again…
    Liverpool fans need to take some responsibility, but they won’t, they think their the greatest in the world, which there clearly not!

    Heysel, (and I’m sorry to have to bring this up with the Hillsborough disaster, because there irrelavent in a way) Liverpool fans still put the blame on other people. Even trying to put the blame Chelsea and Millwall fans that were out there!

  222. Charles says:

    Some comments on here are plain ignorant

  223. Jon says:

    if you support free speech and oppose threatening, loud and often ignorant retaliation, sign the petition in support of WSD. It’s doing very well so far i’m happy to tell. http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/support-WSD

    It’s about free speech. And remember, just because you’re loud doesn’t mean you’re right.

  224. Joe says:

    If you support free speech (including the right to peaceful protest or boycott), but also happen to care about what is true, please read what myself and others have posted on here in order to try and educate those who don’t know about the Hillsborough disaster.

    Please also take the time to sign this petition
    http://www.thepetitionsite.com/petition/567553136
    and/or boycott the show’s sponsors here
    http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/WSDSponsorsBoycott/signatures.html

    Please don’t be fooled. The person who is claiming free speech as a defence, tore into the host of this site for doing no more than reprinting what he himself had said in the first place. That is extreme hypocrisy. Read the arguments from both sides before coming to a conclusion.

  225. Free speech is one thing, but when you are in a powerful position such as radio, you need to be responsible and speek the truth. Clearly S. Cohen did not. To gain publicity on the backs of the dead and blameless is reprehensible. To deny the truth is to stifle the innocent and dead, and they cannot speak for themselves. Apologise Steven and point out the truth, it’s your duty to football and to educate your listeners. It’s in you.

  226. celticmark says:

    My god some of the remarks on the petition just make you people look like ” muppets ” . Show a little class if you want to be taken seriously

  227. Jordan says:

    To “The Gaffer”

    Please be realistic and look beyond your own apparently narrow-minded agenda on this issue. 96 people were crushed by other people in a place where the hosting team and police had some role in providing a safe environment. To blame are, in no particular order:
    -The police
    -The club managing the facility
    -The people who crushed the 96

    It is really quite simple, and there is no harm in saying it. This does not change the fact that it was a tragic loss of innocent life. It was a sad day, and should not be the source of conflict. With contributions like this you fan the flames of violence. Move on!

  228. NICELTIC says:

    “Free speech is one thing, but when you are in a powerful position such as radio, you need to be responsible and speek the truth. Clearly S. Cohen did not. To gain publicity on the backs of the dead and blameless is reprehensible. To deny the truth is to stifle the innocent and dead, and they cannot speak for themselves. Apologise Steven and point out the truth, it’s your duty to football and to educate your listeners. It’s in you.”

    Well said Kevin. Steven has continualy been provided with the facts, he’s refused to apologise for his inaccurate comments, refused to acknowledge the real facts and seems intent on trying to promote himself and his radio show on the back of this disaster. It’s completely reprehensible and i’m not surprised the sponsors are dropping him. He’s even lied over the reasons for them pulling the plug. He has little credibility in the industry and hopefully steve and the show will be repaced with people who have a genuine insight into the game.

    If this was about freedom of speech there’d be a full right of reply, something steve has continually denied to those who can contradict and expose his views…

    next caller…

  229. Joe says:

    The astonishing thing is that this thread, and the other one on this site on the same subject, each contain hundreds and hundreds of posts.

    There isn’t one post, not a single solitary one, from those defending Steven Cohen that puts forward any kind of justification, logic or evidence to back up their argument. There is literally nothing. Just vague, sweeping statements and prejudice.

    Matt’s post is indicative of the argument from that side. No substance. No explanation for how people were supposedly responsible. He hasn’t even attempted to put forward anything that remotely justifies his stance.

    His argument is

    a) Liverpool fans “they think their the greatest in the world, which there clearly not!”
    b) Heysel, which even he concedes is irrelevant.

    This isn’t even approaching a grown up, intelligent effort to understand anything. He dismisses the Taylor report like it’s just someone’s opinion. He fails to see how Steven Cohen has undermined his own position by completely changing his argument about the number of fans without tickets and that they were the cause.

    Matt I suspect you may be a very young contributor on here, and that Hillsborough was most likely before your time. If indeed you are are a youngster, then I apologise.

    The only arguments put across by others defending Cohen, are

    a) He has freedom of speech
    b) That the guy running this site has incited violence!! (Jordan)

    You simply could not make it up. On the one hand claiming freedom of speech, which is only used because there is no substance to back up the argument, and on the other hand blaming the host of this site for – guess what – reprinting what Cohen said!! They defend Cohen, the guy who actually said it, and blame the guy on here for printing it! And yet they cry free speech! Unbelievable. It would be funny if it wasn’t so depressing.

    Comments like that from Philip, whilst at least couched in readable English, threaten to produce something of substance, and then resort to racist stereotyping. Personally, I don’t possess the lexicon to describe my thoughts about someone who makes such sweeping statements without backing any of it up. It really is breathtaking. He goes on about how scousers have no idea about what it takes to make a living, then mistakenly refers to a quote from Platini, which was actually from William Gaillard, (a man whose job was under pressure due to gross incompetence in organising Champions League finals), but later RETRACTED by Platini. He refers to people from a particular area of England as “vermin”. That’s it! You could not get an attitude that was further from what America stands for.

    And finally we come to the subject that has had most people distracted. The apparent death threats. Since no evidence has been presented for this, the least one can say is that if there have been any, it is disgraceful.

    With regards to the cancellation at Fado’s in Austin, bearing in mind how upset Steven is about the campaign against his show, he said this in an email to a Liverpool fan four days ago.

    “As for Fado: you can have them. They made this a local issue in Austin we are going to make sure that it costs them nationally”

    A Liverpool fan posted this on a LFC forum, an email he received from Fado’s in Austin..

    “We made our decision out of simple respect for Liverpool supporters and the game. We’ve never had an issue keeping customers and staff safe even when the pub is very busy. I’m not sure if you have been to Fado, it’s not that kind of place.

    This decision was a difficult one for us. We like Steven and Kenny and like their show and have invested in World Soccer Daily since the last World Cup. We even expanded this year’s Champions League promotion from last year because we believed it was good for both Fado and World Soccer Daily.

    To us, the comments simply don’t reflect the spirit of the sport or the atmosphere of sportsmanship so essential to the pub, our staff, and our customers. I hope as a fan of the sport you can understand the thinking that went into a difficult decision.”

  230. Jon says:

    fyi the support wsd petition is miles ahead of the opposing one….

    ….just saying.

  231. Joe says:

    Jon

    fyi this is a US centric site, I doubt many fans have even read the link I posted. The WSD petition is posted from the er… WSD website.

    the “Putting Steven Cohen straight” facebook group has 1840 members, whereas the Steven Cohen Fan group as of two days ago had 4. It now has about forty, but they are mostly Liverpool fans using it to write messages to anyone who goes there in ignorance.

    Oh and it’s slightly harder to fabricate a profile on Facebook than it is to fabricate signing an online petition.

    … just saying.

  232. Joe says:

    Jon

    …. oh and I forgot, I’ll add that to the list of insightful argument points..

    c) our petition has more signatures than yours.

    cheers

  233. Shakira says:

    Keep up your bullying LIverpool fans, it only adds to the poor reputation you have anyways. Way to go!

  234. Philip says:

    Firts of all, its easy to say that no-one has presented anything to substantiate the view that Liverpool fans where partly responsible for Hillsborough when you wont substantiate it yourself. I could easily say, there is not one single piece of credible evidence that suggests i don’t support Liverpool because there isnt. I’ve been in 27 stadiums throughought europe and there is absolutely no doubt that Anfield was by far the worst, so bad that they roobed a 13 year old disabled boy in the toilet leaving him face down in piss, that never happened anywhere else. To exonerate the supporters from responsibilty suits an agenda and in no way is indicative of the facts. If Hillsborough was filled with legitimately ticketed fans this would never have happened, why didn’t it happen to the Forest fans? Of course the police where totally incompetent and bear responsibility but they’re not the only ones, to use cohen and itandje as scapegoats suits Liverpool as they are nobodys. Has it ever occured to Liverpool fans that not everybody shares their version of the facts and that not everyone wants to listen to grief junky rhetoric about how its everyones fault but their own? Na didnt think so. The rest of football should wear black armabands every day, give liverpool the fa cup, have a minutes silence every hour and never ever blame a scouser on being anything other than cuddly, cultural, loyal football purists. Never ever insuniuate that they killed 39 italians, robbed every first teamers house, turned over ambulances, shower fans in excrement and never say we dont love Bulgarian waiters. For the record, im not American

  235. Joe says:

    Phillip

    “Firts of all, its easy to say that no-one has presented anything to substantiate the view that Liverpool fans where partly responsible for Hillsborough when you wont substantiate it yourself.”

    So, the reason you haven’t substantiated any evidence to back up your claim is because I haven’t substantiated any evidence to back up your claim. Extraordinary.

    “I could easily say, there is not one single piece of credible evidence that suggests i don’t support Liverpool because there isnt.”

    Your hate-filled, bile infested, prejudiced posts on this very page about how all people from Liverpool are “vermin”, and your willingness to blame an entire demographic for the actions of individuals suggest otherwise. There is a word for that you know.

    “If Hillsborough was filled with legitimately ticketed fans this would never have happened”

    For the squillionth time, the Leppings Lane terrace was way under capacity when the disaster happened. The problem was fans being directed into central pens instead of empty side pens. It’s so simple.

    “why didn’t it happen to the Forest fans?”

    It very easily could have. It almost did happen to Spurs fans in 1981 on the very same terrace. Throwing your own logic back at you, why didn’t it happen at Anfield in the previous hundred years of games there?

    “For the record, im not American”

    No – you’re a prejudicial, racist bigot. You can’t help yourself. You can’t even bring yourself to even try and disguise it. It’s quite disgusting to read. I hope you’re ashamed of yourself.

  236. John says:

    Yanks go home! Play your baseball, handball and baketball.

    Leave football to us.

    Again as I stated earlier the Juve fans were responsible for Heysel in regards to those above comments calling Liverpool fans hooligans. the deaths were unfortunate but an outgrowth of the ultra culture pushed by those in Italy during the 80s in cooperation with right wing/facist elements longing for the return of El Duce and an alliance with Neo Nazis in Germany.

    Liverpool fans had to defend themselves against these racist thugs. Loss of life is always unfortunate, but the Italians caused it.

  237. Jeremy says:

    Philip,

    With all due respect (i.e very little), what the hell are you talking about?

    Joe has substantiated his view that Liverpool fans do not share blame for Hillsborough in an exhaustive and extensive way. He’s copied and posted links to detailed information, eye witness accounts, an independent judicial inquiry and documentary evidence to name a few.

    You and your bigoted friends on the other hand, have offered absolutely NOTHING other than conjecture, inuendo and vile racist slurs.

    I’m not going to bother picking your version of events above to pieces, because it’s already been done repeatedly on this thread and elsewhere. I can’t help it if you are willfully ignorant. There is no point in me, or anyone else for that matter, going to any further effort to correct you, as, like Cohen, you simply don’t care about facts.

    You can recount all the horrible stories about Liverpool fans you like. They may all be true. Heck, even if Liverpool fans were responsible for the black plague, it does not therefore follow that Liverpool fans caused Hillsborough. Anyone with a brain between their ears should be able to see the logical fallacy in your specious argument. I pointed this out in an email exchange I had with Cohen and guess what? He stopped responding. He and you are not interested in reasoning. You have your prejudices and your sticking to them.

  238. Jeremy says:

    Shakira,

    You call it bullying, but quite frankly, apart from a handful of morons that Steven refuses to name, this boycott campaign has been forcrful but civil. I’ve seen people on here claim that Fado in Austin, for example, was forced to ban Steven because of threats, but here is their reasons in their own words…

    “We made our decision out of simple respect for Liverpool supporters and the game. We’ve never had an issue keeping customers and staff safe even when the pub is very busy. I’m not sure if you have been to Fado, it’s not that kind of place.

    This decision was a difficult one for us. We like Steven and Kenny and like their show and have invested in World Soccer Daily since the last World Cup. We even expanded this year’s Champions League promotion from last year because we believed it was good for both Fado and World Soccer Daily.

    To us, the comments simply don’t reflect the spirit of the sport or the atmosphere of sportsmanship so essential to the pub, our staff, and our customers. I hope as a fan of the sport you can understand the thinking that went into a difficult decision.”

    See? Steven is even lying to you about this. Why do you believe a word he says? I actually feel sorry for the WSD listeners who have tried to make this about the 1st amendment and free speech.Steven is playing you for fools. Yes, Steven has the right to be an ill informed, insensitive douche, but setting up a petition to support his right to be an an ill informed, insensitive douche, isn’t exactly the most noble cause is it?

  239. Matt says:

    Joe,

    Firstly yes I’m 22 so I would of been 2 years old when Hillsborough happened, it still doesn’t mean my points aren’t valid! so no need for an apology! It seems like were going round in circles here, Ive never dismissed the Taylor Report as an opinion I told you to stop quoting it because its easy to do it, and infact if you remember I have previously quoted it aswell! I don’t even care what Cohen says to be honest, infact he annoys me, I have listened to things hes said and yes your right he can’t back them up he just speaks over the other presenter (forgot his name!) Going back to the Taylor Report though, which I have a lot of respect for because we wouldnt have the better policing and stadiums etc which we’ve had for a number of years in this country now! I can tell you feel very strongly about this Joe, so I take it your a Liverpool fan, I just want to know why you don’t seem to want to talk about Heysel?

  240. Joe says:

    Matt

    I’m happy to talk about Heysel if you want. As a Liverpool fan I feel a combination of disgust and anger about what happened there. As a football fan I feel the same way. As has been pointed out, the difference with Hillsborough is that people were jailed for manslaughter over Heysel. In addition, there wasn’t an orchestrated smear campaign against innocent people from that disaster.

    Both incidents are equally tragic. At Heysel most of those responsible have been prosecuted and given long jail terms. It makes no difference to me whether those individuals are fans or senior police officers. The aftermath of each tragedy has been very different.

    There is perhaps a misconception amongst some about what happened at Heysel. What happened was certain individuals from two sets of fans throwing missiles at each other, followed by individuals from one set of fans charging at the other set, causing the second set of fans to retreat, and in turn causing a wall to collapse. Many innocent people died, and those individuals responsible for the fighting and riot were rightly punished. I would wupport that punishment as much as anyone.

    Imagine how the families of those Italian fans would feel if they were told it was their own fault, or that because they were from Turin, they must be partly to blame.

  241. Philip says:

    Both incidents are equally tragic. At Heysel most of those responsible have been prosecuted and given long jail terms

    Why? Wasnt it the italians fault? Not quite true either but then distorted information is the scouse past time

    There were 27 arrests on suspicion of manslaughter – the only extraditable offence applicable to events at Heysel. The majority of these people were from Merseyside. Some of these people had previous convictions for football-related violence. In 1989, after a 5-month trial in Belgium, fourteen Liverpool fans were given 3-year sentences for involuntary manslaughter.[15] Half the terms were suspended[16] and it is unclear how many served their sentences.

  242. Philip says:

    A number of commentators have questioned Liverpool’s handling of the disaster, particularly in comparison to high profile ‘Justice for the 96′ campaign fought after the Hillsborough Disaster – Liverpool Football Club has never accepted culpability, or responsibility for the actions of its fans and has never formally apologised for the events or compensated the families of those killed.[17][18][19] although in 2005 the Liverpool Echo published a front page emblazoned with the words ‘We’re Sorry’ reflecting a widespread opinion that the fans of Liverpool Football Club were the main culprits and had brought shame upon the city.

  243. Jeremy says:

    Philip,

    Thanks for the quotes from Wikipedia.

    Joe and others including myself, have clearly said that Liverpool fans were culpable at Heysel. Just because some people refuse to see that, like John above, it does not therefore follow that all Liverpool fans think the same way. The vast majority of Liverpool fans are ashamed of the behaviour and the deaths at Heysel as demonstrated by the many gestures of appology and remorse over the years.

    I can’t speak for the club. I imagine that there would be liability issues in admitting culpability for the behaviour of their customers. In my view, they should apologise officially.

    Having said all that, the fact that you are making this a tit-for-tat, petty argument is absolutely disgraceful. Especially when it is clearly tinged with repeated bigoted comments.

    I can only hope that any neutral observers who read the comments on this page can see the sharp contrast between those trying to make a cogent, civil argument in favour of examining the facts and those who are bigoted, petty and mean spirited and only able to offer racist inuendo and conjecture.

  244. Matt says:

    thanks joe,

    I’m also well aware of the issues of Heysel which you have pointed out!
    so then in your opinion, why do you think Duckenfield and Co haven’t had jail time for the deaths at Hillsborough?

  245. Matt says:

    sorry, to include that the Taylor report does back it up that it was a major policing fault also!

  246. Philip says:

    I can only hope that any neutral observers who read the comments on this page can see the sharp contrast between those trying to make a cogent, civil argument in favour of examining the facts and those who are bigoted, petty and mean spirited and only able to offer racist inuendo and conjecture.

    you should be a politician mate, you’ve managed to construct a paragraph that basically says nothing more than please dont believe anything other than what i say.

    So Liverpool football clubs reason for not accepting responsability is liability but yet you expect the British establishment to do something the club you so adore wouldn’t? Wheres the outrage? If liverpool fans are genuinely sorry, they’ve kept that pretty quiet. Wheres the campaigns for justice? Wheres the campaigns for the club to admit the truth? As i have said myself, both where awful tragedies and not for one minute can you say that the inept police weren’t partly responsible for HB but you lose the respectibality for a rational argument if you suggest that ticketless supporters did not contribute to this disaster, of course they did. Any right minded human being sympathises with the families but some truths have to to be told. There is absolutely no way the British Government will release a document that holds their police solely accountable, even if they where. Of course, the ticketless supporters did not mean to commit murder unlike Heysel and no matter the circumstances, those families deserve the truth, the problem is, be careful what you wish for because the truth might not be what you think it is. If documents released hold Liverpool fans accountable you and i both know that will never be accepted, to many people responsible want to wash their hands and their conscience and blame it completely on the police which is just ridiculous

  247. Joe says:

    Matt

    Duckenfield was declared unfit to stand trial on medical grounds and as a result charges against him and another senior officer were dropped.

    On a personal note, I’m not entirely sure whether jail is an appropriate punishment for what, initially, was simply gross incompetence. The false evidence, effective perjury, and orchestrated smear campaign that followed however is one of the main reasons why this issue still evokes strong reaction.

    It was a transparent, and fully admitted cover up on behalf of those people. In order to hide their mistakes they tried to blame it on fans. In the era of hooliganism and only four years after Heysel, they hoped that guilt by association would be enough to confuse the easily led. Evidently they weren’t entirely wrong.

  248. Neutral says:

    With the modern technology available, extensive footage, and crowd counting methods, would it take to much to re-examine all the evidence and make a judgement on how many were outside the ground trying to get in?
    Turnstile counting was notoriously shoddy. Personal testament can be heavily influenced.
    So just keep examining the footage. x-thousand inside at y-time, added to x-thousand outside at y-time. Over the 30 critical minutes, you will then conclude crowd numbers. This will lead you to a simple truth.
    Were there too many fans putting pressure on a weak Police Presence and inadequate ground, OR were there the correct numbers who were channeled in to too small an area, by well intended, but ultimately liabile Police Officers.

  249. Philip says:

    Joe, imagine this wasn’t football fans that died, do you think the British Government have conducted smear campaigns, commited perjury, murdered innocent people, exonerated the crown forces, and covered mass murder up before? The British Government have been doing it for 800 years big man. Many many people waiting for an admission of guilt that will never come no matter how many enquiries. It was a tragedy where both where culpable, where both never meant for the deaths of all those people and where both have far too much to lose to admit responsibility. I don’t hate all scousers, i have a deep dislike for Liverpool fc but i do believe that those families deserve the truth no matter what it is.

  250. liamo says:

    neutral…the health and safety executive conducted a private investigation into aspects of the disaster for Lord Justice Taylor’s inquiry. Part of their investigation was to assess admissions to the stadium. They tested the turnstiles, they tested the accuracy of readings given, they assessed the video evidence and counted every fan who entered the stadium. The full HSE report was only released in 2005 due to the freedom of information act. If you read the report you’ll see quite clearly it wasn’t influenced by personal testamonies. It was a scientific report, the maths, the working out, the conclusions are all available to be read now. Lord justice taylor had the full report and with this evidence concluded that ticketless fans wasn’t the cause for the buildup outside the turnstiles nor the disaster inside of it. The number of people admitted didnt exceed the capacity and as video footage shows the wing pens were under populated.

    Philip – all inquiries have exonerated liverpool supporters of any blame. Lord taylor exonerated supporters of blame, lord justice stuart-smith agreed with lord justice taylors view but disagreed the new evidence put to him warranted criminal action against SYP and others. South Yorkshire Police admitted full liability in civil courts. Inquests juries have the option of death by misadventure if there was any evidence of ‘misadventure’ on the part of liverpool supporters. Strangely the jury were told they could return a verdict of unlawful killing or accidental death…misadventure wasn’t on the table.
    Do you honestly believe if there was any evidence against supporters that SYP would withhold it to protect liverpool supporters?

    mentalistst…bitter and deranged like cohen.

  251. Shakira says:

    Can’t we just drop this and agree to disagree. We all have our opinons and they wont change, we keep going round and round on this. Its time to drop it until next year.

  252. Joe says:

    Liamo

    Thank you for your post. Calm, sensible and informed.

    Shakira

    “Can’t we just drop this and agree to disagree. We all have our opinons and they wont change, we keep going round and round on this. Its time to drop it until next year.”

    Translation – I’m embarrassed by the vaccuousness of my argument, and don’t like it when people like Liamo make cogent factual points that make me look hateful, ignorant and silly and as such would prefer not to talk about this any more.

  253. Philip says:

    Saturday April 15 1989. A date that will forever be engraved in the memories of football fans as the occasion of the game’s greatest tragedy. Ten years on, as hundreds flocked to Sheffield to remember, the decision of Home Secretary Jack Straw not to re-open the inquiry into the events of that terrible day still leaves a sour taste in the mouths of many.

    The bereaved families claim they have new evidence which implicates the South Yorkshire Police as solely responsible. The Taylor Report made suggestions to such effect in the immediate aftermath of the tragedy, but the official inquest recorded a verdict of accidental death.

    That cannot be right. Hillsborough was no accident.

    But whereas the ongoing campaign for a new public inquiry seeks only to implicate the Police, there are wider issues which remain unadressed.

    Hillsborough signalled the end of two decades of carnage and destruction as English football fans forged a reputation for drunkeness and violence. Football supporters are blamed unequivocally for the Dublin riots at the England v Ireland friendly, blamed by everyone outside Merseyside for the Heysel disaster, and considered largely responsible for the scuffles at the 1997 Italy v England World Cup qualifier. And yet public opinion is united over Hillsborough – the fans were innocent.

    The facts do not support the incrimination of fans alone, but should they not shoulder some responsibility for what happened? Eighties football culture dictated that fans turned up at the last minute, many drunk, many ticketless. The match on April 15 1989 was no different. Liverpool fans, lest we forget, had killed 39 Juventus fans just five years earlier at Heysel and were at the forefront of Eighties football violence. They were no angels.

    The Police that day were grossly negligent. They failed to forsee the consequences of opening Gate C and failed to distribute the fans equally amongst the pens. But their shortcomings were in failing to prevent the tragedy. They did not cause it.

    The crush outside the Leppings Lane end was caused by hordes of fans arriving late. The Police had taken action to prevent a crush on the forecourt as the throng pushed and shoved to get in. Their decision to open the gate was the wrong one – and they should be called to account for it – but it was the influx of supporters that necessitated the opening of the gate, and the influx of supporters which crushed the victims on the terrace.

    John King, in his book ‘The Football Factory’, says of Hillsborough: “But who gets killed at the end of the day? It is the people who are there to watch a game of football and who aren’t interested in causing trouble.” He is probably right. The majority of the victims were at the front, had got into the ground early and had probably not had a single drink. But it is naive to place those who steamed onto the back of the terrace at the last minute in the same category. Daily Mail columnist Jeff Powell shrewdly described those who died as: “The unsuspecting,” who, “had the life squeezed out of them by the scant regard of those pressing from behind in search of their own vantage points.”

    The controversial Hillsborough drama documentary was touted as being ‘a serious exposition of the issues’, but in reality, master dramatist Jimmy McGovern created nothing more than an enraged document of blame which turned into a rant of Police castigation.

    Nobody should be fooled by McGovern’s portrayal of the Police. With the new image of the ‘brave new world’ all seater stadiums in mind, those watching the Hillsborough documentary were disgusted at the revelation that the Police assumed the unfolding tragedy was a pitch invasion. But was it really any wonder that they feared the worst when Liverpool fans spilled onto the pitch?

    Speaking to Lord Justice Stuart-Smith as part of the process of the compilation of the latest investigation, Hillsborough camera operator Roger Houldsworth said: “I certainly did not think that people were being seriously injured. Liverpool did have a reputation, same as virtually all teams. It was in the height of the hooligan period and it was just something you thought was happening; yes, it’s a pitch invasion. I was in the same mind then as, I suppose, all the policemen who went on the ground. I think that we all thought exactly the same.”

    Portrayed in this light, the Police do not seem as callous and insensitive as many believe they were. Perhaps they were merely human beings doing their job, afraid of the task they faced, and guilty of making terrible mistakes that contributed to the deaths of 96 people.

    Jimmy McGovern’s documentary would also have us believe that the fans should be entirely exonerated from blame. In his original statement (before it was altered by his unscrupulous seniors), PC David Frost admitted the Police were “useless bastards” and described how he “began to cry” when the enormity of the situation sunk in and he realised how “inadequate” he was.

    Frost at no point even hints that the fans played any part in the catastrophe, but, through his observations, a picture of the crowd can be drawn up. “A number of fans had cans of beer,” he noted, and he described how he had to: “eject a fan for jumping the turnstile,” and arrest a “very drunken fan.”

    Frost’s observations support the theory that there were many ticketless fans outside the ground. “Many people asked about tickets,” he recalled. More significantly, he remembers: “how busy the charge room was – very noisy with a lot of scouse accents.” The cells, he recollects, were “full of drunken, blood covered fans.”

    Most crucially of all, Frost’s description of the atmosphere amongst the fans outside the ground hints at the pressure which Superintendant Duckenfield was under when he made the decision to open the gate. There were thousands pushing against the turnstiles and PC Frost remembers: “The atmosphere was very volatile. It seemed these crazed animals would die if the game went on without them. I remember hating them for their mentality.”

    Whether Frost’s testimony is believable is a subject for speculation, but anyone who attended football matches in the Eighties will recognise the scene he describes, whatever team they follow. The Police had to do something to ease the crush outside the ground. They made a horrendous error, but it was a mistake they were forced into.

    And yet the behaviour of Liverpool fans that day was not intrinsically bad. They were merely conforming to football culture – the drinking and the violence which made tragedy inevitable – and football culture should shoulder the blame for Hillsborough. The perimeter fences that caged and crushed were necessitated by the behaviour of football fans collectively. Had Hillsborough been a cricket ground, the fans would have formed an orderly queue, would have been sober and would all have had tickets. But it was a football ground, and football culture dictated that it was the norm to turn up late, drunk and ticketless.

    The general concensus remains that the fans were innocent. How ironic, then, that the press so vehemently highlighted the role of the fans in the trouble at England’s World Cup qualifier in Rome. The Telegraph’s Henry Winter could so easily have been speaking of Hillsborough when he wrote: “The innocent majority were punished for the excesses of the malignant minority.”

    Winter goes on to say of the Rome affair that: “Defending the fans is a laudable aim, but a one-eyed stance allows the trouble makers to escape censure.” Wise words. The innocent may have been clubbed by Police batons in Italy, but the Carabinieri’s over zealous reaction was prompted by the appalling hooliganism manifest in the English minority which had been graphically illustrated before the game and in previous days.

    So why is the same logic not applied to Hillsborough? In similar circumstances, a select few were responsible for the detriment of others – and have escaped without reprimand.

    The widespread dissatisfaction at the initial conclusions of the inquest warrants a new inquiry, but it must not be a witch hunt hell bent on laying the blame solely at the door of the Police. Speaking on Nicky Campbell’s show on Five Live, South Yorkshire’s Chief Constable, Richard Wells, said: “Some supporters did not behave well, some policemen did not behave well. What we need to introduce to proceedings is a feeling of mutual responsibility.”

    It is time that an objective and dispassionate review of what happened at Hillsborough was conducted by informed people who are not afraid to reveal unpopular findings. The innocent people who died that day deserve nothing

  254. Philip says:

    Point is, its hardly an outrage to believe that Liverpool fans where partly responsible, its a very plausible opinion thats shared by many

  255. Shakira says:

    Joe,
    Nice try but no thats not it at all. I have said Cohen was wrong and agree he shouldnt have said what he did. However I not seen one post that has changed anyones mind through all 255 made so far. Its your and others condecending attitude that turns people off from either caring or in some cases disagreeing with Cohen. That “I’m right, your not and your a fool if you dont agree with me” crap that has turned me against Liverpool fans. If they hadnt been so bullying and closeminded to people who asked questions among other things then more people might follow them. Patronize me all you want, I could really care less.

  256. Mark says:

    Well stated Shakira. Ouch!

    No pienso que quieren realmente entender lo que tu estas diciendo o convencer cualquier persona. Agradezco tus comentarios aquí. También aprecio tus llamadas al show. Tu tienes siempre cosas muy inteligentes a decir. Sin embargo, no soy un fanatico de los merengues.

    Adelante-Mark

  257. Mark says:

    liamo

    I have read the report as well. None of your points mean that there were not thousands of ticketless fans and that they could have contibuted but not “caused” the disaster. The language is very careful as the report is also a political document. I think the conclusion and in important one was that even if there were not ticketless fans such a disaster given the decisions that were made and procedures in place could have happened anyway. In that sense, it would not have been responsible to focus on factors that cannot be controlled or remedied by authorities and might distract from factors that require attention- smart choice for Taylor and for the future of English football.

    The idea that those inside the stadium were not overcrowded by were misdirected does not mean that some of the pressure generated was by overcrowding outside the stadium. The report is saying that the deaths were not caused by too many people being let in but by how they were directed. An important distinction but one that does not provide proof that Cohen’s claim is incorrect.

    I find it amusing that you lambaste Shakira for “facts” etc. but your reading of the report and what it says is so facile.

  258. Mark says:

    While I think there is substantial prejudice against Scousers my black friends from Liverpool would be really offended at someone who calls it racism. There is no such thing as a Scouser “race” or “ethnicity”. That is not to say there is not substantial prejudice against Liverpudlians, you hear it all the time. But you also here a fair amount of racism from Scousers. So much so one friend hates football and Liverpool FC because when he was growing up the fans were so racist. I don’t like or condone the stereotypes and prejudice againse Liverpudlians but it isn’t racism.

  259. Joe says:

    Mark and Phillip

    The Taylor report is not a political document. Or at least in so far as it is, it is authorised by the establishment, at a time when the easiest thing in the world would have been to blame football fans, and very controversial to blame the police. That’s why, given the extraorinarily thorough nature of the report, and the lack of any political motive to not blame fans, there is indeed a consenus that the fans were not to blame.

    “I have read the report as well. None of your points mean that there were not thousands of ticketless fans and that they could have contibuted but not “caused” the disaster.”

    Did you read these bits?

    Paragraph 201
    “First, there was a wide range of witnesses who observed inside the ground that the Liverpool end was at a late stage well below capacity save for pens 3 and 4. ..wing pens were sparse…The match being a sell out, there were clearly many ticket holders to come, and they could account for the large crowd still outside the turnstiles. Had the liverpool end been full by 2.40pm one could have inferred that much or most of the large crowd outside lacked tickets.”

    Paragraph 202
    “Secondly, such figures as are available from the clubs electronic monitoring system and from analyses by the HSE suggests that no great number entered without tickets. They show that the number who passed through turnstiles A to G plus those who had entered through the gate C roughly equalled the terrace capacity for which tickets had been sold…. The figures do suggest that there was not a very significant body of ticketless fans in the crowd which built up.”

    Teams of professionals from the HSE spent hours analysing all cctv footage and counting, over and over again, head by head, the number of fans entering. It was a scientific study. Not an eye witness account, or some guys opinion.

    Phillip

    “Portrayed in this light, the Police do not seem as callous and insensitive as many believe they were.”

    Nobody has ever suggested that police were being deliberately callous in those moments at the time or intending to cause harm. It was gross negligence followed very quickly after by a cover up and inventing stories for the press in order to cover their backs.

    “Daily Mail columnist Jeff Powell shrewdly described those who died as: “The unsuspecting,” who, “had the life squeezed out of them by the scant regard of those pressing from behind in search of their own vantage points.””

    With an investigation as thorough as the Taylor report, why quote Jeff Powell? Did Jeff Powell write this before the Taylor report? Have you read this part of the Taylor report?

    Paragraph 44
    “Those entering through turnstiles A to G had three options once inside the ground. They could by moving to the right go round the south end of the west stand and gain entry into pens 1 and 2. They could go through the gap in the dividing wall towards the concourse behind turnstiles 11 to 16 and then round the north end of the west stand into pens 6 and 7. However there were no conspicuous signs inviting them to take either of those courses. The obvious way was straight ahead of the turnstiles where a tunnel under the middle of the west stand gave access to pens 3 and 4. Above the entrance in large letters was the word “Standing” and a large letter B. Thus B ticket holders were drawn towards the tunnel.”

    Paragraph 171
    “At Cup semi finals.. all the pens were opened from the start and the policy was to let fans “find their own level”. This phrase was repeated again and again by police officers at the inquiry. What it meant was that no specific direction was given to fans entering through the turnstiles. They were free to go wherever they wished on the terraces. If they became uncomfortable or wished for any other reason to move their position, then theoretically they could move elsewhere. In this was it was hoped that the fans on the terraces would level themselves out and that the distribution would be achieved without police intervention. On these occasions the gates at the top of the radial fences were locked in the open position. It was sought to argue, therefore, that there was freedom of movement from one pen to another enabling fans to “find their level”.”

    Paragraph 172
    “This argument was bad both in theory and in practice, In theory, the whole object of radial fences had been to achieve even distribution by directing fans into desired positions. To say then that they could move freely from one pen to another would defeat the object and enable fans to go from a less popular to a more popular area without inhibition. In practice this did not happen because the position and size of the gates was such that once a substantial number of spectators were in, the gates were unnoticeable and inaccessible especially to those towards the front who might have most need of them”.

    Paragraph 183
    “…Whilst in theory the police would intervene if a pen became “full”, in practice they permitted the test of fullness to be what the fans would tolerate”.

    “Mr Duckenfield reaffirmed the policy about a delayed kickoff. It would be ordered only if there was some major external factor such as fog on the Pennines or delay on the motorway, not if spectators merely turned up late in large numbers….(from paragraph 192) Whether those who arrived late was much debated. The ticket simply required it’s holder to take up his position 15 minutes before kick off.”

    ““A number of fans had cans of beer,” he noted, and he described how he had to: “eject a fan for jumping the turnstile,” and arrest a “very drunken fan.””

    Seriously? Did one particular fan really have a can of beer? Oh I didn’t realise. And what’s that? – there was a drunk man? Oh.My.God. Thank goodness the days when there is a fan at a game who is drunk are long gone. I’ve changed my mind – the disaster was caused by the drunk man. And the man with the can of beer – he was in on it too.

    “The general concensus remains that the fans were innocent. How ironic, then, that the press so vehemently highlighted the role of the fans in the trouble at England’s World Cup qualifier in Rome. The Telegraph’s Henry Winter could so easily have been speaking of Hillsborough when he wrote: “The innocent majority were punished for the excesses of the malignant minority.””

    How ironic that fans were deemed innocent at Hillsborough, whereas when England and Rome fans clashed in Rome, in a riot(!!!!), some fans were blamed. hmmmm.

    “So why is the same logic not applied to Hillsborough?”

    Some fans rioted when England played Italy, and hence shoulder blame, therefore we must apply the same logic to Hillsborough on the grounds that….er… they are also… fans!?!!?

    “Frost’s observations support the theory that there were many ticketless fans outside the ground. “Many people asked about tickets,””

    You don’t need to quote Frost on this – it’s in the Taylor report. Oh except that it goes on to say that this happens at every major event and that the most reliable and consistent police witnesses thought that the number doing this was no more than for any other game or event. Obviously you haven’t read the report.

    “It is time that an objective and dispassionate review of what happened at Hillsborough was conducted by informed people who are not afraid to reveal unpopular findings. The innocent people who died that day deserve nothing”

    I presume you are the same Phillip who called people from the Liverpool area “vermin”. If you want an investigation that is more dispassionate, neutral, thorough, scientific, authoritative and exhaustive than the Taylor report – good luck! Again this proves you haven’t read it, but I don’t blame you since it is extremely long. What I do blame you for is spouting random rubbish having not read it.

    “Point is, its hardly an outrage to believe that Liverpool fans where partly responsible, its a very plausible opinion thats shared by many”

    I agree, on the surface that would be how it could look. If I didn’t know much about it, that’s what I’d probably think. Point is, the verdict is in. In heartbreaking detail, and with oceans of concrete evidence, that this beilef is false. It’s one thing to think it at the outset, it’s another to stick your fingers in your ears when the evidence contradicts you.

    Shakira

    “However I not seen one post that has changed anyones mind through all 255 made so far. ”

    How true! Certain people’s minds haven’t been changed. I would probably disagree with you on the reason for this though.

    Check my dialog with Shaft Fc on the other thread. He explained how it looked on the face of it. He asked a few genuine questions. He took the time to find out what he didn’t know, and learned from it.

    Most of your points seem to be saying you don’t want to talk about it anymore. Well then don’t. Others would like to. It’s called freedom of … no even I can’t bring myself to use that as a defence. It’s so intellectually vacant.

    Mark

    I honestly wasn’t going to bother responding to your other post on the other thread. The problem was where to start. I used the Katrina example as something where a misappropriating of blame, combined with nobody being held to account for incompetence, might cause outrage. Clearly I was right. It was an analogy. Where in haydes did you get the idea that I was comparing being a scouser (which incidentally I’m not) with the plight of African slaves? To compare one specific incident involving people from each – and pointing out a common factor, is not to infer that the history or struggle collectively of each group of people is equivalent. I can’t believe I’ve even had to write this bit.

    This is my final post. I hope some people have thought a bit more about this issue. Suffice to say I hope everyone supports the boycott of anything Steven Cohen related and that nobody threatens or harms anyone, except figuratively in Cohen’s case.

  260. Joe says:

    Jaime said…

    “It may not be all Liverpool fans but Ive heard nothing, ever, condemning them save for 1 person on here and that was fleeting.”

    For the benefit of anyone googling this, here is a quick selection of quotes from Liverpool fans or other people who condemn Steven Cohen, on this very page no less(!), about the death threats and what we think of them.

    “I do not condone the despicable calls and e-mails made to Cohen and have voiced my horror at those types of opinions expressed,”
    “again I do not condone the threats that were made.”
    “I do not want Steven Cohen to come any harm. I don’t want him to be threatened, and I condemn anyone who does so.”
    “I’m not going to defend or mitigate death threats. Sadly, it doesn’t surprise me, as there are a lot of morons out there who can’t have a reasonable discussion.”
    “By the way, any death threats made against Steve Cohen, or any one else should be handed over to the police, end of story.”
    “I’m not going to defend or mitigate death threats”
    “I hope that nobody threatens or harms anyone,”
    “it is fine to voice your displeasure and give reasons as to why you feel that way but, threatening a man’s family is quite frankly appalling”
    “However whoever is threatening anyone with violence particularly his step daughters are just sick morons.”
    “Regarding any threatening e-mails or phone calls made to Steven Cohen, I want to publicly say that I do not condone such behavior, and I find it despicable that people would act that way.”
    “It’s terrible that people have been threatening Steven Cohen or anyone else. That should be condemned unreservedly.”
    “people like Mr Cohen who feed on the sick prejudices of the feeble minded. None of this justifies death threats”
    “I don’t want him to be threatened, and I condemn anyone who does so.”
    “Death threats are wrong and anyone that has actually made a death threat should be punished according to the law.”
    “There are no excuses for all the threats”
    “The type of people who send death threats are not the type of people the majority of Liverpool supporters want to be associated with. Every club has a small segment of people that are nothing short of absolute muppets.”
    “I have made it clear in all my comments here that I condemn such actions. Just because some idiots take it too far, it does not therefore follow that peaceful protest loses it’s legitimacy.”
    “Nobody is defending the idiots who threatened Steven Cohen.”
    “he also claims there have been threats on his family etc… which is obviously WRONG.”
    “There may be some idiots who have been threatening to Mr Cohen, I join you in condemning them.”
    “I and most other Liverpool fans, participating in other forums, are making it very clear that anything that constitutes a threat will not be tolerated.”
    “I have repeatedly rejected the threats of violence to Steven Cohen”
    “You ask us to try and stop the idiots from threatening Steven Cohen,…ask Steven Cohen to forward me the email addresses of those who threatened him and I’ll do my best. I’ve posted comments here and elsewhere condemning them, including in my emails to Steven and his sponsors, but if you think I can do more, send me their emails.”
    “I do not support people sending death threats.”
    “sending death threats to this man and his family on account of his views on Hillsborough is well out of order”
    “I’ve gone out of my way to condemn the thugs that threatened Steven and have asked you how you think I could do more.”

    Now, this is just after a quick scan of the comments. Bearing this in mind, and to show the level of dialogue that is being returned, here are some comments that have been made repeatedly, directed at the very same people who have made the comments above. by…

    Shakira
    “Sending death threats and such is not the way to go”
    “why dont you concentrate on getting Justice back in England instead of going after Cohen, or having some of your lot send death threats to him and his family.”
    “death threats against him and his family, is that your so called Justice?”

    Mark
    “You are responsible for these threats”
    “What do you hope to accomplish by threatening Steven?”

    and finally, one of the stupidest people I have ever encountered. And on the internet that is saying something…

    RaiderRich
    “he’s still being threatened by you”
    “make a real attempt to stop the threats
    “Death threats do not equate to a boycott. Failing to stop the death threats does “not equate to a boycott.
    “Looks like your threats failed.
    “stop the death threats
    “You’ve done nothing to stop the death threats.
    “And yet you feel justified in excusing death threats from Liverpool fans.
    “Jeremy is a Northern Irish Liverpool terrorist who apparently “honors” his dead family by suggesting it’s OK for some Liverpool fans to threaten Steven Cohen”
    “the people whom you have attacked owe you nothing until you apologize for: Inciting death threats against your rival”
    “Congratulations, Gaffer, your campaign of corporate-sponsored violence against a rival is paying off.”
    “You disrespect the 96 you claim to cherish by continuing to threaten sponsors on behalf of the The Gaffer,”
    “you hurt soccer’s image with the non-soccer media in America who look at stuff like the threats you have leveled against Fado’s”
    “You admit that Christopher Harris started this and you admit you are threatening people with violence”
    “So basically, Joe, you care *nothing* for the staff at Fado’s in Austin whose lives were threatened.”
    “If you’re trying to prove it’s a “small minority” of Liverpool fans that are causing the death threats, you’re not off to a good start.”
    “Seek help” must be Liverpool fan code for “Agree with me or I kill you.”
    “nothing that you said gives you the right to send death threats to a person or his advertisers”
    “Joe, again, if it’s a small minority of Liverpool fans, as you suggest, stop them.”
    “The rest of the Liverpool fans are doing nothing to prevent this, they are accessories.”
    “so you approve of people sending death threats?”
    “You do not have the choice to send death threats. ”
    “You somehow seem to think that’s proper justification, despite your condemnations which are only there for PR purposes, that it’s OK to send death threats.”
    “he’s lying out of his teeth or he’s still being threatened by you (which would be further proof that you have done nothing to stop the death threats).”

    Note, this is not meant as a dialogue with any of the people who’ve said this. That is clearly an almighty waste of time. Just thought I’d put it together in a bite sized chunk so anyone who stumbles on here can get an idea of the level of the discourse from the two sides. I don’t like having to call a person stupid, but eventually there is no choice. Particularly when that person is falsely accusing you of death threats.

    Oh and in case of going off subject – support the boycott against Steven Cohen for his hateful, slanderous, unsubstantiated accusations of manslaughter against a group of people.

  261. RaiderRich says:

    “Note, this is not meant as a dialogue with any of the people who’ve said this. That is clearly an almighty waste of time.”

    Why, because we refuse to fall in lockstep conformity with your worldview and refuse to accept your lies at face value? Prove that you are doing something about the threats instead of just continuing to throw out empty statements. You are looking for people to approve of your campaign of violence, pure and simple and no reasonalble person who believes in real justice will ever except people who choose to perpetuate a cycle of violence and hatred.

    “Support the boycott against Steven Cohen for his hateful, slanderous, unsubstantiated accusations of manslaughter against a group of people.”

    Yes, support injustice committed in the name of justice. Support death threats in the name of the 96 dead.

  262. RaiderRich says:

    accept not except

  263. Jaime says:

    Thats what I mean though. Its only been on here. Ive never heard any public statement from the Liverpool supporter groups condemning the threats, not just to Cohen but threats made elsewhere as Im sure there are some, or releasing a public statement saying these are not the actions of the Liverpool supporters. If you can direct me to a statement made by the Hillsborough Justice, and similar, groups condemning such acts I would appreciate it. Have they sent anything to Cohen saying that they condemn the threats? I doubt it but I stand ready to be corrected.

    On a side note how about a statement against singing songs about the Munich disaster. I was watching the Manchester Derby this weekend and some Scousers on the chat were posting some disgusting remarks about the crash. Does not help the cause at all. The only thing Ive seen on that is videos of fans doing it being pulled off Youtube. I know its a side not but was wondering if anything has been done about it as it was brought up when Liverpool played United earlier this year.

  264. Jaime says:

    Sorry – I know its “off topic”, not “a side note”

  265. dutch says:

    is “yank” supposed to be an insult? it sounds like you wish you were a “yank”

  266. Mark says:

    I only responded to a post that called perceptions of what had happened
    “racism”-

    However, more important is the issue of ticketless fans. The report uses the number of fans in the pen and in the stadium to say that the cause was not too many fans or ticketless fans but the tragic distribution of fans into a small space almost all of whom had tickets. I get it. But logically one of these things being true does not mean the other is not. They are not mutually exclusive.

    I noted even in an account by one of the fans published in another forum it was stated (I am paraphrasing), “There were not enough tickets allocated for the demand of Liverpool fans that day.” It went on to note the disparity in ticket distribution with LIverpool not receiving enough. This then is dropped in the rest of the narrative.

    Piecing together these bits I surmise that there were many ticktless fans OUTSIDE the stadium. That says nothing about the fans inside the stadium and how they were herded into a crush. The report concludes that it was not overcrowding inside that caused the disaster but it does not preclude that authorities improperly failed to deal with the large crowd (by all accounts) OUTSIDE. If that crowd were smaller does the incident not happen? That is unknowable. Exactly why Steven is wrong. It is pure conjecture and unfortunately we don’t have that day to do it over again.

    But the claims of Cohen-there were many ticketless fans that day and the claims of the Taylor report are not mutually exclusive and both can be correct. Cohen did say fans outside the stadium. At the end of the day regardless authorities should have anticipated this and made many errors that both caused and exacerbated the loss of life that day. Whether it be negligence, incompetence or what those men have blood on their hands. Steven has said as much.

    Where he makes a point which is one I feel is open for debate, is if the large crowd outside the stadium/including ticketless fans was a contributing factor in the disaster. There is little evidence to say that he is wrong about that as the report sidesteps the issue focusing on the fans inside the stadium and their distribution. This is important because theoretically the incident is possible even if the crowd was under capacity. That is what I meant by and official and a “political” document. THe report does not put out a claim that might distract from the most important point that the government needed to address. Regardless of fan behavior, or ticketless fans better crowd management and safety measures needed to be put in place to prevent future disasters. Focusing on ticketless fans in the report would have (as Cohen is an example of) distracted from that all important point. Just as Cohen get’s distracted with the how many fans where when the problem was one of crowd control-though he could still be right. It is like the plane crash in Buffalo. One could blame the weather- a condition that probably minimally did not help. But it was not a sufficient condition to cause the disaster. It appears at least it was really pilot error- of a variety of kinds. Suggesting planes should not fly in those weather conditions would not solve the problem even though the weather might have “contributed”.

    I also surmise that the move to all seated stadiums solved a myriad of problems.

    1. fans have a place and thus you have no issue of supporters being crushed into a single space. There are clear gates and seats for fans to go to- they don’t find their own comfort level.

    2. Since you have to have a seat it is more difficult for ticketless fans to get into the venue and there is nowhere for them to go. Authorities also cannot look the other way as they could letting fans into the terraces. Thus, fewer fans without tickets will show up on match day making the crowd control both inside and outside the stadium easier.

    There are a host of other problems. But I don’t see how any of this disrespects the dead, defames anyone or claims liverpool fans are guilty of manslaughter. It also means Steven is not “all wrong” though he is wrong but also some of the liverpool fans are wrong as well. I think both exaggerate and polarize around the discussion as do most with political and emotional debates. But my objective read of the evidence seems to suggest there were ticketless fans there, but those fans were not the central cause of the accident. It could have happened without them.

  267. Johnny Red says:

    Here’s an idea, if you don’t like Cohen’s views or his dumb show……CHANGE THE CHANNEL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Typical scouser fans, always living in the past!! SHUT UP!

  268. Martin says:

    Sorry Mark but that’s utter nonsense. If the gates were opened, then why were there still less people on those terraces than the official capacity, surely this marauding mob of ticketless fans would have entered too wouldn’t they?

    There were a few ticketless fans there like any game. There were a few fans who’d probably had a touch too much to drink like any game. But if that was a factor in what occurred that day, there would have been a Hillsborough every other week at football games.

    What happened at Hillsborough was a string of mistakes made by the senior officers in charge, of which any one being done correctly would have prevented people being slaughtered.

    1. The appointment of Duckenfield when he had no experience of policing football matches.

    2. The failure to have a police cordon 50 to 75 yards from the turnstiles, to slow the build up of fans into a bottleneck entrance where all 24,000 Liverpool fans had to enter, as had been done the year before under a different Superintendent

    3. When it became clear that fans weren’t going to get into the game on time, a simple tannoy announcement that the kick off would be put back half an hour.

    4. A decision to open the gates outside, without considering the impact that would have inside on already packed terraces.

    5. The failure to notice that the middle pens were severely overcrowded even by 2.30.

    6. Once that decision had been made, the failure to close off the tunnel to the middle pens.

    7. The failure of police once the crush had started to note that anything was wrong despite them being feet away and able to see everything.

    These are the basics of crowd control, points so obvious in their simplicity that to miss one is gross negligence, but to get every one wrong is beyond comprehension.

    As someone who escaped Pen 4 but witnessed horrors that will stay with me til the day I die, Mr Cohen you are wrong and you are an embarrassment. The 96 fans showed more dignity in their desperate final moments than you would ever be capable of showing.

    They will never be forgotten

  269. The Gaffer says:

    I was interviewed this afternoon by National Public Radio (NPR) for a story they’re working on regarding the misinformation that Cohen has been spreading. The segment will appear on All Things Considered on Friday afternoon. Let’s hope they do a fair report on what happened.

    Cheers,
    The Gaffer

  270. liamo says:

    Well done Gaffer.

    If they had any deceny they will.

    In response to mark, its abundantly clear that you haven’t read the HSE report, if you had youd realise first of all that it isn’t a singular report but a series of reports conducted by several indiviuals with regards to different aspects of the stadium both inside and outside the stadium.

    as i’ve said their methodology is available to view, the number of fans who entered the stadium is recorded and listed in five minute intervals from the first admission to the last admissions at 3:10.

    Furthermore – if you’d bothered to read and take in the information in the reports you’d understand that due to errors on the part of the safety advisors employed by sheffield wednesday fc the overall capacity figure for the leppings lane terrace had been miscalculated or rather overcalculated.

    eastwood and partners gave the club a capcity figure of 10’100. They gave that figure based on an old drawing supplied by swfc which gave greater dimenensions. Eastwood and partners didnt conduct their own survey of the terrace.

    So if 10’100 supporters arrived and managed to evenly distribute themselves across the 5 pens the terrace was over capacity due to the original miscalculation. Perhaps the reason why, whenever, there was a capacity crowd at Hillsborough fans in the leppings lane always complained of crushing.

    Furthermore at the civil hearings South Yorkshire Police had employed their own structral engineer to examine the terrace and found that the correct capacity figure was even smaller than the figure the HSE figure as they also calculated the reductions that should have been made in the side pens aswell as the central pens.

    In short, too many fans were invited, they were too few turnstiles to admit the numbers invited, their were no stewards employed to direct supporters(against regulations), there were no signposts to direct fans to the wing pens(against regulations), the information on the tickets matched the signpost above the tunnel leading to the central pens and most fans were drawn to the tunnel. The central pens had exceede their capacity by 2:45pm. There were no stewards manning the emergency exit gates (against regulations) The police did not monitor the crowd in the pens as they were supposed to, did not close access to the tunnel, and opened an exit gate against regulations, against the law and the duty of care they owed.

    They had the option of delaying kick off which officers outside the turnstiles believed would have immediately reduced the pressure on the turnstiles. That option was put to duckenfield and he rejected that option – he should take full responsibility for the option he took and the consequences of his actions.

    While your googling round perhaps you might come across the prime ministers admission that fans were not to blame for the disaster, the home secretary’s admission that fans were not to blame for the disaster, South yorkshire police’s senior officer accepting full responsibility for the disaster. Hell, even the sun critised the police for their failures and attempts to pervert the course of justice.

    The only people who still believe liverpool fans bare some responsibility are you/steve and have yet to put forward any credible evidence to support your views.

  271. Rich says:

    A “Yank” here…member of LFC NY….I’ve gone through most of the posts here
    and I think Mr. Cohen with his incendiary remarks on the tragedy probably just didn’t realize the extent of the reaction he’d get from everybody. It’s ironic that the out of control situation that occurred at Hillsborough is now happening with his remarks. This is a fire that will be hard to put out and unfortunately he lit Hillsborough up again. If he’s a reflective individual he just may regret it.

    I can’t add anything significant to all these posts ranging from the vituperative to the asinine to the unthinking to the insightful to the factual.
    What I just want to say is that if there is anybody here and is related to those whose lives have never been the same since Hillsborough I am sorry and feel for all those who had the experience of the tragedy. As a parent, I don’t know what I’d do if I found out that my sons or daughters did not come back from a football game and the reason was that it was because they died there. If you think about it it’s absurd but it can happen and unfortunately it did happen. For myself, I hope to go to Anfield soon and pay my respects to those dead after all the years.

  272. Derek says:

    There are several things that I cannot understand here:

    1. If the Taylor Report, which consisted, amoung other things, of 70+ hours of CCTV footage of the stadium, inside and out, and thousands of eye-witness accounts of events that day, cannot be taken as fact, I wonder what it is that some of you are looking to learn? There is not one single shread of evidence to support any of Cohen’s lies, but some of you seem determined that this is because it’s been hidden, or lost, as opposed to the indisputable fact that it simply doesn’t exist, becuase it didn’t happen.

    2. If anywhere from 6,000 – 10,000 (depending on what day of the week Cohen is speaking on) ticketless fans arrived late to the ground and rushed the gates, where are they on the CCTV footage? One would think that a crowd that large would find it very difficult to enter a stadium without being seen by CCTV, the Police of match stewards.

    3. Similarly, if only 6,000 (Cohen’s low-end estimate) ticketless fans arrived and forced their way intio the ground, one would assume that weh the report was assessing the true number of people who actually entered the Leppings Land end that day, they would have found numbers in excess of 16,000. Actual estimates however put the number of people standing in that terrace as approx. 9750 to 10,124. So, anywhere from a maximum of 124 people (or 1.2%) overcrowded to the stand actually being occupied below it’s official capacity is the real truth.

    The facts are these. Thousands of late arriving fans are not the reason for the crush. The fact that two of the five pens in the Leppings Lan end were filled to nearly twice their capacity, whilst other pens were practically empty around them, is what killed those people. And the failures of the F.A., S.W.F.C., the Sheffield City Council and most of all the S.Y.P. are what caused the tragedy. This is obvious to anybody who actually wants to see the truth, as opposed to merely backing up one’s already established (and wholy incorrect) opinion.

    And if you don’t like the Report’s finding, too bad. Not only is it accurate, there was actually enormous pressure on the researchers to find fault with the Liverpool fans, to unhold the lies that the establishment had begun circulating the very day of the tragedy. Duckenfield lied about the fans breaking down the gate, having earlier given the order to open the gate himself. McKenzie lied about the fans’ behaviour, claiming to take the word of a S. Yorkshire politician who hadn’t even attended the game. And Douglas Hume even blamed the fans less than 24 hours later, claiming they were at fault for being drunken and agressive. Many, many police constables who worked the stadium that day had their sworn accounts of the events altered or completely erased by their superiors, prior to allowing them be viewed.

    Why can you people not accept the truth? EVERY ONE OF THESE LIES HAS BEEN DEBUNKED, ALMOST 20 YEARS AGO… Why is it that you refuse to accept that? It’s not opinion. It’s fact. Retired policemen will tell you this. As will Forest fans who were also at the game… Why do you want so badly for this to be LFC fans’ fault?

    Becasue you don’t like them? Again, too bad. I don’t like chelsea. But that doesn’t mean that they’re all as hate-filled and malignent as I find Mr. Cohen.

    And those of you taking offense at the comparisons of this tragedy and 9/11… Nobody is saying they were similar in magnitude. But imagine the reaction if an ill-educated shock jock announed, as fact, that all the victims had to share in some of the balme for their own deaths, for simply being in the planes or in the buildings that day. Can’t yous ee that that is exactly waht Cohen is implying? “It’s partly wn fault, becasue they were there”.

    Nobody is asking you to take what we LFC fans asy as Gospel. Nor are we telling you that we don’t have an element that have brought shame on our club. But here’s what we are saying… We’re no worse, in general than any other club (T-CFC… Ever heard of the Headhunters, per chance? ), but people love to embelish the actions of the few.

    And we’re simply asking you all to take just a few minutes – it probably wouldn’t take more than 15 or 20 – and read about that day. Then draw your own conclussions.

    I guarantee you, you, you’ll no longer agree with Mr. Cohen. Unless you already have an unshakeable agenda.

  273. Fuuzball says:

    “And those of you taking offense at the comparisons of this tragedy and 9/11… Nobody is saying they were similar in magnitude. But imagine the reaction if an ill-educated shock jock announed, as fact, that all the victims had to share in some of the balme for their own deaths, for simply being in the planes or in the buildings that day. Can’t yous ee that that is exactly waht Cohen is implying? “It’s partly wn fault, becasue they were there”.

    Plenty of talking heads come up with all sorts of reasons why this happened and people don’t try to get them off the air; they try to refute them, but they accept the tradition of free opinion.

    “I guarantee you, you, you’ll no longer agree with Mr. Cohen. Unless you already have an unshakeable agenda.”

    Very few people agree with either side; everyone has their opinion and is free to do so. You are free to try to change anyone’s mind.

  274. stan mac says:

    justice for the 39

  275. liamo says:

    well done stan, up with the early bird to post that or just based in america and go by the name of steve per chance?

    I hear mel was interviewed by npr for 90minutes but not a single segment was included in the show. I’m sure they were hoping that mel would be some kind of derranged lunatic frothing at the mouth with anger and offering an array of insults and threats and for 90minutes all they got was calm reflection and mel pointing out steve cohen’s history and the facts of the disaster.

    must of been very disapointing for them and their angle.

    It seems that npr fella is a friend of cohens and has done this piece to support his friend.

    Much better articles on the disaster have appeared in the
    Los Angeles Times:

    The pain from Hillsborough tragedy remains
    A crowd of 30,000 gathers at Liverpool’s Anfield Stadium on the 20th anniversary of the disaster that killed 96 and injured hundreds.
    By Chuck Culpepper
    April 16, 2009

    Reporting from Liverpool, England — Even 7,305 days on, city buses stilled. Trains paused. Subways rested. Taxis pulled over and idled. Ferries shut off and let the river nudge them. Pubs held two-minute silences. Radio stations hushed.

    At precisely 3:06 p.m. on Wednesday, a metropolitan area of 800,000 strived to sound like a small town, even inside a stadium renowned as one of the loudest on Earth, where organizers of a memorial for the 20th anniversary of the Hillsborough soccer tragedy expected about 10,000 for tribute.

    An astonishing 30,000 filed from long, snaking queues into Liverpool’s Anfield Stadium in a bracing wind that rippled the organist’s sheet music, and they continued to file in at 3:06 when they, too, forged a vast quiet broken only by babies and toddlers and church bells ringing 96 times in the distance.

    Even on a planet with its share of sports zealots and sports calamities, it might be hard to find a community that mastered the fine art of remembering the fallen more durably than the supporters of the Liverpool Football Club of England’s top soccer league.

    It has embedded into their cores that 96 of their fellow fans died on April 15, 1989, when too many people hurried through a narrow tunnel right before a big match between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest at Hillsborough Stadium in Sheffield, 58 miles away. They know how the match started before anybody realized until it stopped at 3:06, and they know of the 766 injuries, and they have heard all the accounts of those who could not hold down a job because of the post-traumatic stress.

    It has haunted their brains that the scene had an uncommon grisliness, that some died standing up from compression asphyxiation, that a government inquiry cited police for mismanagement of crowd control, that police denied ambulances access to the stadium because they inaccurately suspected mass hooliganism.

    It has angered up their bloodstreams that the tabloid the Sun capsized a whole raft of ethics with an uncorroborated cover story charging Liverpool fans at the scene with vile acts, that the uninformed-but-opinionated dished some blame on the fans, that police officials altered their stories and that no conviction or confession of dereliction has come.

    It has even lent them a shred of comfort that Hillsborough initiated the rethinking that led to England’s safe stadiums of today. After a series of catastrophes minted English football’s reputation as unsafely ill-mannered in the 1980s, people “saw the people that had been killed at Hillsborough and heard their stories,” said John Williams, a sociologist at the University of Leicester. “That woke up the general population.” Still, inside Anfield, the sorrow persists such that Hillsborough has its own anthem, which Lee Roy James sang on Wednesday, including the lyric, “If a lesson’s been learned, it’s a lesson too late.”

    The fans cheered a mention of Sheffield citizens who let Liverpool fans use house phones in those pre-cellular days. They cheered a mention of those fans and ambulance workers who tried frantic CPR on others. They cheered at the memory of distraught Liverpool players from the 1989 roster.

    They booed when Andy Burnham, the federal government’s secretary of state for culture, media and sport, said, “I represent the prime minister.” They interrupted Burnham’s remarks with an impassioned singing of “Justice for the 96.”

    They stood and cheered repeatedly as Trevor Hicks, the president of the Hillsborough Fan Support Group, spoke; Hicks lost two teenage daughters that tragic day. They came with knowing, weather-beaten faces, and with surprising numbers of faces too young to have been born in April 1989.

    So many people came that they sat in all four stadium sides. Beside Hicks stood a case with 96 candles in glass holders emblazoned with names. A bell tolled with the reading of each name, and the 100-minute service ended with two current Liverpool-raised players — Steven Gerrard and Jamie Carragher — on the pitch and 96 red balloons
    How do Liverpool fans refrain from the natural course of the fading memory? Williams sees two factors. “This club has a kind of cultural heritage,” he said. And then after Hillsborough, “Everyone escaped censure, so there’s the whole feeling of injustice, which is actually a central feature of the culture of the city itself.”

    As for the heightened sense of community, “It’s just the way we are,” said lifelong Liverpudlian Amy Ormesher. She stood on a sidewalk near the permanent Hillsborough memorial. Below the memorial, flowers piled knee deep. Lacing the nearby stadium gates, hundreds of scarves and shirts from all manner of clubs — even the loathed Manchester United — expressed well wishes. Tucked within everywhere were laminated papers with poems. “Dear Son of Mine Forever,” wrote one parent to a victim named Anthony, concluding, “Every day for the last 20 years/I wished you were here.”

    In the rare case of Liverpool, clearly thousands would have written the same.

    There are some decent journalists in america after all.

  276. paddy coughlan says:

    Kartik,

    hang your head….you did not know the facts and you let him spew his nonsense which started all this.
    The Gaffer, Chris, is blamed for his postings causing the “threats” to cohen.

    In my opinion sir, if you had have read the facts and conducted your interview like a proper journalist we may not be in this situation.

    Have you ever heard of objectiveness?

    keep it going gaffer, im right with you.

    Kartik,

    Educate the soccer people you are so clearly passionate about.
    Remember it was england that gave you the beautiful game (and i’m irish), and help keep it that way.

    Cohen off air…will be no loss.

    YNWA

    Paddy

  277. paddy coughlan says:

    Jesus Liamo.

    Great post.

    I’m lost for words mate.

    Those people are the most important issue here.

    The dead and the survivors, many who cant face a day with survivors guilt.

    YNWA

  278. Philip says:

    Let me just say this, having taken the time over the last few weeks to study the taylor report, read eyewitness accounts and erase all my pre conceived notions about what happened that day, im left with the conclusion that i’ve been absolutely dead wrong on this. Its blatantly obvious the SYP are fully responsible for this heartbreaking tragedy, they where completely inept and the British Governments lack of action in bringing to justice those responsible is a disgraceful insult to the the 96 people that lost their lives that day. Equally despicable was the coverage of the disaster from the right wing rag ‘the sun newspaper’ i fully understand the outrage from Liverpool fans at this particular tabloid, they’re a disgrace. I want to apologise to people i may have offended with my misguided views, i can assure you, my slant on this has been changed for life and never again will i say what has been said prior.

    I do wonder what justice truly is though. Sadly, the British Government will never incarcerate or prosecute any of their crown forces, they’re well know with their miscarriages of justice and protecting their own. One day, the people that caused this disaster will die, maybe then, they will face a court much greater than anything on earth and maybe thats when justice will come.

    All the same, truth and justice in our living lifetime would restore some faith in our paid politicians whos job it is to do the right thing.

    Once again, my sincerest apologies

  279. Mark says:

    To state it is a political document is not to state that it is untrue or suspect. It is only to state that it was designed by the writer in a political atmosphere to achieve purposes. I also don’t agree that that purpose automatically had to be in concert with the aims of the government at the time. Government’s create bureacracies all the time that do things they don’t intend them to do. That being said, I support the conclusions of the document. But to say it is not a political document and that anyone who disagrees with some of the evidence in the documents or conclusions is “lying” is a little unfair.

    There are two questions. The first is, in 2009 is the point where Steven Cohen disagrees with fans of Liverpool FC a major point or a minor one. The second is, is the disagreement out of malice or ignorance. I contend that the distinction is a minor one. And his analysis reflects a lot of the misguided “common sense” on the topic. You don’t have to hate Liverpool fans or disrespect the dead to think that fans participate in these disasters in some meaningful way. I have had dialogs with well meaning Liverpool fans who discussing other disasters have said, oh well in the case of that concert or that match it was the fans. The circumstances in those cases are not disimilar they just have not taken the time to thoroughly investigate them or assimilate the lesson from Hillsborough to other situations.

    Does that make them evil people, no. You could call them hypocrites. I would not. They default to what most people assume is the case about these kinds of incidents that the behavior of fans plays a role. The fact that Cohen says it and after death threats to him and his family sticks to it, is not surprising or shocking. What is more shocking to me is the reaction. Sorry but that’s just me.

    People can’t fathom that I can think Cohen is wrong and also should not be lynched. If you read the supporters petition, that’s what most people say, even a substantial number of Liverpool fans.

    Can anyone please tell me what you shope to accomplish when most of your opposition agrees with you on the substance?

  280. Daveywavey says:

    I’ve played and supported football all my life and love the game, as do millions of other people around he world. I’ll go and watch any team play when I get the chance. It is a sport that brings so much joy as well as sorrow to many people. I should know, I support Newcastle!
    Football brings people together but can also cause divisions amongst others. Rivalry in football can be bitter but in most cases it is just light-hearted piss-taking.

    The disaster at Hilsborough has brought all nations of football fans together in their sympathy and support for all the families who lost their loved ones so innocently on that fateful day. I whole-heartedly support the views of everbody who is campaining for justice for the 96 and so, I believe, should everybody else.

    It often feels like you are part of a jury when you read varying reports but the fact is that the police have not been prosecuted for their blameful actions. All police forces and governments are bent, end of.

    Only in america can such broadcasting like this be appeared to be tollerated.
    This is mainly due to the outragousely selfish and sorry state of american attitudes, they think that they are above any other nation. They are so engrossed in their own superiority and self belief that they think that they can speak out and have opinions on matters that they know very very little of.
    People like Cohen are just simple-mindedly chasing fame.
    What saddens me the most is that this yid in america has decided he will try and have his 15 minutes of fame by having a total disregard of respect for all the families concerned who are still fighting for justice after 20 bitter years of trying.
    Either he knows very little – which sounds pretty bloody obvious or he is simply being very provoking and is chasing notoriety.

    Speaking as a jurer, in either case, it is my deduction that his opinions are to be disregarded.

  281. Mark says:

    To state it is a political document is not to state that it is untrue or suspect. It is only to state that it was designed by the writer in a political atmosphere to achieve purposes. I also don’t agree that that purpose automatically had to be in concert with the aims of the government at the time. Government’s create bureacracies all the time that do things they don’t intend them to do. That being said, I support the conclusions of the document. But to say it is not a political document and that anyone who disagrees with some of the evidence in the documents or conclusions is “lying” is a little unfair.

    There are two questions. The first is, in 2009 is the point where Steven Cohen disagrees with fans of Liverpool FC a major point or a minor one. The second is, is the disagreement out of malice or ignorance. I contend that the distinction is a minor one. And his analysis reflects a lot of the misguided “common sense” on the topic. You don’t have to hate Liverpool fans or disrespect the dead to think that fans participate in these disasters in some meaningful way. I have had dialogs with well meaning Liverpool fans who discussing other disasters have said, oh well in the case of that concert or that match it was the fans. The circumstances in those cases are not disimilar they just have not taken the time to thoroughly investigate them or assimilate the lesson from Hillsborough to other situations.

    Does that make them evil people, no. You could call them hypocrites. I would not. They default to what most people assume is the case about these kinds of incidents that the behavior of fans plays a role. The fact that Cohen says it and after death threats to him and his family sticks to it, is not surprising or shocking. What is more shocking to me is the reaction. Sorry but that’s just me.

    People can’t fathom that I can think Cohen is wrong and also should not be lynched. If you read the supporters petition, that’s what most people say, even a substantial number of Liverpool fans.

    Can anyone please tell me what you hope to accomplish when most of your opposition agrees with you on the substance?

  282. Mark says:

    “This yid in America” good to know anti-semetic slurs are better than being wrong about an incident. Daveywavey 05.17.09 at 8:44 am you are scum and I hope New Castle get relegated

  283. Mark says:

    So folks if Steven is getting emails like that, how do you feel about it? What do you think about being called “a yid in America”. See the point is once this started if Harris was responsible he would have written another blog entry decrying these attacks. he has not. Those of you who have unleashed this beast of hate (“hang your head in shame”- rubbish) ought to be ashamed of yourselves.

  284. Bob says:

    I think that Steven is right. You mention gate C opening was the cause. Well it was over crowded from the beginning due to scouser fans not buying a ticket. Though a lot of innocent people lost their lives in this tragic incident, Liverpool F.C has failed to tell the truth and apologize for the actions of their fans. You want to blame Steven for his comments, but heis not the only one making those comments. I am sure Steven would say the same if It were Chelsea fans instead of Liverpool.

    Also, Steven said that he is was disgusted that Liverpool fans were singing a sick song about the Munich Disaster in with sever Manchester United players tragically killed. The Liverpool fans did this about a week or two before the Hillsborough Anniversary.

  285. Joe says:

    Mark

    “So folks if Steven is getting emails like that, how do you feel about it?”

    Emails like what? Oh you mean the “comment” posted on a forum by a NEWCASTLE fan. I thought it was all death threat from Liverpool fans? That’s been the implication with the little media stories this week. And Mark, don’t make me post the list of condemnations of the threats again. The fact that you are still asking that question leads me to believe you are a bit simple.

    For someone who has supposedly spent their career studying Martin Luther King, you don’t seem to adhere to his principles much. It’s no more my fault than it is yours if a Newcastle fan calls Cohen a “yid”. So Mark, how do you feel about it? You’ve been fanning the flames of violence on this thread by defending Cohen, thus making people more angry, thus inciting threats against Cohen. You don’t like that insinuation? Welcome to your world. Oh and whilst we’re in your world of biazaaro logic.. how can you admire Dr King? A man who incited Malcolm X to miltancy, or the black panthers to hateful action? You don’t like that comparison – remember we’re in Mark’s world, where those who protest peacefully get blamed for those who don’t. Or Steven Cohen’s world, where the distinction is never made that 99% of Liverpool fans have protested peacefully.

    How hard is this for you to get? Not only is Cohen using the media to accuse all Liverpool fans of threatening him, he’s not even providing any evidence of the crime he is lumping them all in on.

    Several times on this thread you’ve been outraged by an analogy. Surely someone who teaches political discourse should know what one is? I pointed out a particular similarity between Hillsborough and Katrina, whilst noting that the scale was different, and you started ranting about centuries of slavery.

    “There are two questions. The first is, in 2009 is the point where Steven Cohen disagrees with fans of Liverpool FC a major point or a minor one.”

    I don’t know if Cohen is your friend, but you are unable to see that he is playing you for a fool. How can you think that he has a legitimate difference of opinion? He started by saying that 6-8000 fans were to blame for Hillsborough, which he later recanted whilst insisting that his point was valid. Which it isn’t.

    There are only two possible reasons why Cohen would say that 6-8000 fans were the root cause of the disaster.

    1) He was lying.
    2) He had no idea what he was talking about.

    I genuinely don’t know which one it is, but after having provided zero evidence to back up his claim whilst still insisting he has a point, he doesn’t deserve not to be “lynched” (I’m talking figuratively Mr cannot distinguish between anaolgy, figure of speech or literalist interpretation college professor). And thanks for the advice on “tactics”. As a side note, if you disagree with someone, it’s not a good “tactic” to insinuate that they don’t care about Darfur or slavery, just because they speak out on another topic. Somene damage your car? Don’t mention it, Katrina was worse. Someone punched you in the face? Tough, what about Darfur. Someone robbed your house? Shut up, what about slavery – that was worse.

    Oh and finally why are you still posting about this? I thought you were deeply offended that Liverpool fans were protesting something you find so trivial? Imagine how deeply offensive it must be to protest the protest that is trivial. If our protest offends you because it is so insignificant, then what about the protest about the protest?

  286. Joe says:

    Bob

    “I think that Steven is right. You mention gate C opening was the cause. Well it was over crowded from the beginning due to scouser fans not buying a ticket.”

    Paragraph 200
    “the police witnesses who most impressed me did not consider the number of ticketless fans to be inappropriately large. This accords with two other sources of evidence.”

    Paragraph 201
    “First, there was a wide range of witnesses who observed inside the ground that the Liverpool end was at a late stage well below capacity save for pens 3 and 4. ..wing pens were sparse…The match being a sell out, there were clearly many ticket holders to come, and they could account for the large crowd still outside the turnstiles. Had the liverpool end been full by 2.40pm one could have inferred that much or most of the large crowd outside lacked tickets.”

    Paragraph 202
    “Secondly, such figures as are available from the clubs electronic monitoring system and from analyses by the HSE suggests that no great number entered without tickets. They show that the number who passed through turnstiles A to G plus those who had entered through the gate C roughly equalled the terrace capacity for which tickets had been sold…. The figures do suggest that there was not a very significant body of ticketless fans in the crowd which built up.”

    Consider yourself corrected – happy to help.

  287. The Gaffer says:

    Mark,

    In response to your comment, “See the point is once this started if Harris was responsible he would have written another blog entry decrying these attacks. he has not. Those of you who have unleashed this beast of hate (”hang your head in shame”- rubbish) ought to be ashamed of yourselves,” I want to mention that I came out against the death threats in the comments section of both of the articles I wrote about Cohen/Hillsborough. I felt there was no need to write a new story about it. I also mentioned in the NPR interview that I do not condone the death threats.

    I didn’t start the fire. Cohen did by saying those idiotic statements. I simply reported the facts. Big difference.

    Cheers,
    The Gaffer

  288. Robbo says:

    Obviously Hillsborough was a terrible tragedy and it must be terribly frustrating for the families and friends of the poor victims but what kind of “justice” would be acceptable. Regardless of Police incompetence I’m sure no Police Officers that day intended or wanted any football fans to die. I’m sure all the cheeky, chappie, scally scousers who turned up without tickets didn’t want anyone to die, I’m sure the pillock who thought “caging in” paying customers didn’t want anyone to die either. The cause may be a combination of these factors but noone intended this disaster. Look at the coppers who chased down Jean Charles Menzenes and murdered him. I think the Police in this instance were more guilty than Hillsborough and they suffered little or no disciplinary action. I know scousers think there is a conspiracy against them but wasn’t just a terrible turn of events, with no deliberate malice and 96 innocent people lost their lives as a result. I and everyone I know feel great sympathy for them and their family and friends.

  289. Daveywavey says:

    Message to Mark….

    I am deeply sorry if my comment offended you and appologise sincerely because that was not my intention. I was just putting into words what the majority of level headed people already know – the facts.
    I use the word yid all the time, it is not a term that I use in disrespect nor is a mackem or skate or manc etc etc etc. For Christ’s sake, even Tottenham call themselves yid army.
    You are a very confused person who is in search of the truth. I hope you find it but I doubt you ever will. You are very immature and you have a lot to learn my friend.
    Good luck anyway.
    P.S. Newcastle is one word not two.

  290. YANK GO HOME says:

    I CANNOT BELIEVE YOU YANKS ARE VOTING FOR THIS SCUM, WHO SUPPORTS THE COLD BLOODED MURDER OF 96 PEOPLE BY INCOMPETENCE THE BEST PRESENTER IN THE EPL TALK AWARDS.

    THIS IS WHY YANKS DON’T DESERVE FOOTBALL. NEVER IN THE HISTORY OF THE GAME HAS SUCH A TRAGEDY OCCURRED YET ALL YOU YANKS DO IS TRIVIALIZE IT LIKE YOU TRIVIALIZE THE GAME BY CALLING IT SOCCER, HAVING YOUR CLOCK COUNT DOWN AND DECIDING YOUR TITLE NOT BY THE TABLE BUT BY A MINI CUP TOURNAMENT.

    YANKS LOVE THE SCOUSER HATING COHEN WHOSE SPEECH SHOULD HAVE HIM BANNED FROM EVER TRAVELING TO THE UK AGAIN. NOT ONLY WILL WE AKE SURE WORLD “SOCCER” DAILY IS OFF THE AIR BUT WE’LL MAKE SURE AMERICA DOESN’T CORRUPT THE BEAUTIFUL GAME.

    PART OF ME CANNOT BLAME COHEN. HE IS A BUSINESS MAN SELLING A NAIVE AND IGNORANT AMERICAN PUBLIC ON A GAME THE BASEBALL AND NASCAR LOVING YANK KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT. HE CAN MANIPULATE THE TRUTH. PERHAPS HE’S DOING ALL OF THIS FOR A WIND UP SAYING “LOOK AT HOW STUPID THE YANKS ARE AND THEY STILL LOVE ME.”

    WHAT RIGHT DO YOU HAVE TO RUIN FOOTBALL AMERICA? YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW TO PLAY THE GAME OR WHAT THE GAME IS ABOUT. YOUR ONLY POSITIVE CONTRIBUTION TO THE GAME IS TO GIVE US A HANDFUL OFF SERVICEABLE PREMIERSHIP KEEPERS. THE REST OF YOUR NATIONALS TOIL IN LOWER LEAGUES OR IN YOUR DOMESTIC LEAGUES.

    THE OTHER SIDE OF THE COIN TO QUOTE AN AMERICAN SAYING IS TO ABSORB ALL OF THIS NONSENSE LIKE PK SHOOTOUTS, BLATANT COMMERCIALIZATION OF THE GAME, CLUBS AS INVESTMENTS NOT FOOTBALL COMMUNITY ORGANIZATIONS AND STEVEN COHEN.

    GAFFER, YOU ARE A GREAT MAN SITTING THERE IN FLORIDA TO HAVE RESISTED THE TEMPTATION TO LOSE YOUR HERITAGE AND BE DRAFTED INTO YANK CULTURE. YOU ARE TRULY A RENAISSANCE MAN AND I APPLAUD YOUR RESISTANCE OF COHEN AND HIS YANK ILK.

  291. paddy coughlan says:

    Mark,

    Nobody involved in the peaceful means of the boycott supports death threats or threats of any kind,

    You are trying to hype the immature threats of few to dissolve the cause of many.
    Steven should publish the “threats” he has received, and have the ip’s tracked of the sender.
    Anyone who has issued a threat should be prosecuted.

    Steven has flagrantly ignored all facts and you enter this, sitting on your many years experience of political science and study of all types of racism, but cannot see the bigger picture.

    96 people died through no fault of their own or anybody else other thatn the SYP, who are now being found out for their cover up.

    Shame on you sir.

    You obviously do know better, but obviously enjoy a frappachino with the cretin, Cohen.

    Chris Harris highlighted the topic raised by Cohen.
    Cohen made the remarks.
    Cohen refuses to apologise.
    Cohen will now have to sleep in the bed that he has made.
    I imagine quite a bit of tossing and turning over the next while.

  292. Joe says:

    Phillip

    You sir, are a gent. A great example, thanks for your post.

    It takes a real man to admit he was wrong.

    Joe

  293. The chosen one says:

    One thing I can say is that the 96 we’re ALL innocent, the people responsible have not been punished.
    I can’t understand why the Kop stand up throughout the whole of the match, I think that is disrespectful of the 96 and why we now have all seater stadia.
    They also sing “stand up for the 96″.
    I know other fans stand up but you’d think the Kop would be more sensitive to this.

  294. Jaime says:

    Chosen one… Really? Youre telling me you sit down during the matches? If you can go to Anfield, or any stadium, and be among the supporters and not stand youve something wrong.

    Not: That doesnt apply to the prawn sandwhich brigade at Old Trafford.

  295. Sean Atkinson says:

    Jaime, I agree with you.

    While people do their best to sit down, for the most part, people stand up, chant and sing. The difference between standing up now, and standing up back then, is that people actually have seats. It is a lot easier to stand up when you have an actual seat than when you’re just assigned a random area and are forced to self-govern yourself without any knowledge of things like crowd capacity and an actual aside area (as opposed to being just thrown into a standing room area section where it is essentially survival of the fittest).

  296. Mark says:

    Shame on me for what? For thinking that the “movement” has gone badly wrong. For disagreeing? For being disgusted by anti-semetism? For thinking that kind of hate does not justice to 96 people dead? I am sorry but I feel no shame and to be honest while I have been in a room with him a time or two (at a pub), we have never had a Frapachino or a face to face conversation. I have never even called the show.

  297. Mark says:

    Gaffer big difference from burying and condemnation in the comments section and writing and addendum to an article. Sorry. But you know better.

  298. Philip says:

    No problems Joe, i appreciate you accepting the apology. Its amazing what education does.

  299. Mark says:

    Wow, this is novel. I guess with the election of our new president and the things in this blog, I will defend America and Americans from the Yanks go home attack.

    First of all most of us, even those who support Cohen, think he is wrong. We have heard both sides and we have concluded he is wrong on this one. You can’t call us naive, unintelligent or whatever. If that’s your point you are hurling at people who agree with you that Cohen is wrong but don’t agree with the boycott. Let me get this correct. In your mind if Cohen is wrong then you must support the boycott or at least should right?

    We also have podcasts available from the UK- Guardian, Chappers, ESPN etc. and we can weigh the information and discussion on WSD with other shows.

    One interesting feature of the boycott is an attempt to rather than engage in dialog and have correspondents make statements about it, you try to force them to leave the show. If American fans are so ignorant why deprive us of Robbie Earle, Tim Vickery, Graham Poll Andy Bassel etc.?

    Second, these comments are hugely ignorant. I watched Maradona ply his trade for Napoli in Italy. I have regularly attended games at the Maracana. Many of the “Americans” in this forum are people from Mexico, Argentina, Italy, Spain, Colombia, Brasil. My closest football friends are from the UK (one Toffee one Liverpool fan), El Salvador, Colombia, Mexico, and Brazil.

    Sorry to upset you Brits but both in the US and around the world there are folks who are thoughtful, knowledgeable about the game and have strong opinions.

    If you think we are ignorant why do must of us agree with you on the substance? Perhaps we just have different values. That’s culture not knowledge. Also if we are ignorant why encourage experts to no longer speak to the American audience. I am still angry about the loss of Robbie Earle which I am assuming has something to do with the boycott (sad). And finally, you don’t know America or Americans. We are folks from all over and even many of us from here have been all over the world. The English game and England are not the center of the Universe sorry…when was the last time England hoisted a cup? Where were they at the Euros? You’ve won bugger all in years…. I hope you get some more success but this anti-yank you don’t know football crap is nauseating.

  300. Frank says:

    Mark said : ” The English game and England are not the center of the Universe sorry…when was the last time England hoisted a cup? Where were they at the Euros? You’ve won bugger all in years…. I hope you get some more success but this anti-yank you don’t know football crap is nauseating.”

    So much of this discussion boils down to this very real fact. Tragedies that have happened in Brazil, the Ivory Coast, Nigeria, etc are almost totally ignored by the British press and hysterical British fans.

    Additionally your trips Mark to the Maracana and watching Napoli have no bearing on the average English football supporter because they live in their own insular xenophobic angry world. Many of them have little or no idea about football outside the British Isles and thus react with anger and vitriol every time their mighty England is humbled in competitions of value like the Euros and World Cup.

    America’s football community is on the whole more cosmopolitan and much more educated about the world game while less educated about the British game than those in the UK.

    Hillsborough was a tragedy. But I’d like to see some of people bitching and whining here to show the same interest in other tragedies around the globe that didn’t involve English teams or English fans. Oh and show some need for justice at Heysel where most of the murderers and that is what they got off with light sentences and commuted sentances

  301. Rich says:

    I listened to the NPR program and the comments. Just a point. The last thing one comes away with from the program is Mr. Cohen’s position that the cause of the disaster at Hillsborough was because of ticketless supporters. It is apparently a singular cause of the whole mess You do not hear anything in detail about the official investigation and its findings. Nada. Zilch. Nothing. Nothing to counterbalance at all Mr. Cohen’s opinion. You know if they do a poll here in the future as to what was the cause of Hillsborough I wouldn’t be surprised if the word “ticketless fans” comes up in those responding. Personally, Mr. Cohen is entitled to his opinion but he has done a disservice not only in noting the “truth” to those here in the US but really to all over the world. Really, at bottom, this isn’t a US- Brit as some have made it out.
    And ,of course, we know it’s bigger than that.

  302. The Gaffer says:

    Rich, I agree. It’s unfortunate because I was quite clear with the NPR reporter that the issue of whether ticketless fans were responsible or partially responsible for the disaster is black and white. No, they were not a factor in the cause of the disaster. And I explained that SWFC authorities estimated the number of ticketless fans as 24, not 6-8,000 as Cohen first said.

    Unfortunately NPR chose not to include those soundbytes in the piece.

    Cheers,
    The Gaffer

  303. Frank says:

    A couple more points.

    The NPR program focused on what they did because we here in America have a civilized society and death threats and racist/anti semetic are less acceptable forms of speech here than voicing opinions about how a tragedy occurred and saying shared responsibility which is what Cohen has said all along. He has even said the police and SWFC are more to blame than the fans. It’s illogical to think a throng of fans who push their way into a stadium had no responsibility.

    Furthermore, I have seen no tributes or sympathy due to shared experiences from the Liverpool contingent and the HJC for the recent football tragedies in the Ivory Coast or previous tragedies in Africa, Asia or Latin America. Nor have I once seen any HJC members or Liverpool fans publicly call for REAL Justice for the murderers of 34 Juve and 5 others at Heysel.

    Commuted sentences and short phony jail terms are okay when it is the Scousers who are guilty, ignorance is the best policy when the barbarian heathens that England once civilized and taught football get killed but justice needs to be served just in this one tragic case.

    You are a bunch of self serving hypocrites. We won’t let you ruin the game here in America by imposing your values and your experiences on us. Steven Cohen will stay on the air and continue to be the most popular radio host in this country.

  304. Sean Atkinson says:

    Mark:

    WSD has not lost Robbie Earle. As a matter of fact, he’ll be on today’s show.

    Frank:

    “The NPR program focused on what they did because we here in America have a civilized society and death threats and racist/anti semetic are less acceptable forms of speech here”.

    Are you implying that England is not a civilized society?

    Do not let the actions of a few overshadow the many.

  305. Rick Rottman says:

    Christopher,

    You stated in the NPR interview that you found the death threats against Steven to be “equally despi­ca­ble” as his comments about Hillsborough. How can threatening a man’s life and well being be equal to saying that rowdy, ticketless fans were part of the problem?

    And you STILL have the factually incorrect quote at the top of this post. The one where Steven was talking about the Ivory Coast and you show that he said that about Hillsborough. You really need to change that.

  306. Sean Atkinson says:

    Rick Rottman:

    I think the Gaffer was referencing Cohen’s original comments which to some implied that Liverpool supporters were responsible for the 96 deaths at Hillsborough. If anything, killing people is worth than threatening a person’s life.

    That is besides the point though, I don’t think the degree of dispicability should be debated because that is missing the point of the larger issue.

  307. The Gaffer says:

    Rick, you’re deluded if you think that Cohen didn’t say on April 13th that 6-8,000 ticketless fans were the root cause of the Hillsborough Disaster.

    During the April 20, 2009 episode, Cohen first said “There were several thousand who showed up without tickets.” But a few minutes later, when co-host Kenny Hassan gave Cohen an opportunity to retract the 6-8,000 number, Cohen replied “If it’s not the right number, it’s not the point. If I’m wrong on the number, then I’ll retract it and apologize. If it’s 25, 2500 or 25,000, my point is made for me. There were people there who shouldn’t have been there because they didn’t have tickets and they were hell bent on getting in. I’m sorry, those are the facts.”

    The death threats were despicable. And so too was what Cohen said when he blamed the Hillsborough Disaster on the Liverpool fans, and then changed his story to say that they should share responsibility — which is despicable, too.

    Cheers,
    The Gaffer

  308. Sean Atkinson says:

    *If anything, killing people is worse than threatening a person’s life.

  309. Rick Rottman says:

    Christopher,

    What I’m saying is that this quote is wrong:

    “People show­ing up with­out ticket, hell bent in get­ting into some­where where they shouldn’t be going because they don’t have tick­ets, is the root cause of [the Hills­bor­ough Disaster].”

    It should read:

    “The thing is, the 23 that died in the Ivory Coast, in my opin­ion, the police were absolutely had some­thing to do with it. At the end of the day, people show­ing up with­out ticket, hell bent in get­ting into some­where where they shouldn’t be going because they don’t have tick­ets, is the root cause of it in my opinion.

    You seem like a decent guy who wants to get stuff factually correct. I know that other people than myself have pointed this out to you. I just don’t understand why you don’t correct it.

  310. tank99 says:

    Steven just apoligised on the show on WSD, so can you liverpool fans end your guys contacting all his sponsors and take his apology on face value, a true apology.

  311. Gaz says:

    He still managed to get a final dig in on you though, Gaffer. ;)

    “By the same token those who use a keyboard and computer to exercise their own freedom of speech, opinion and expression also have a responsibility. They have a responsibility not to sensationalize comments made and twist them for their maximum appeal especially when this is done only for their own commercial benefit and clearly with malice intended.”

  312. Rich says:

    “Cohen…..the most popular radio host in the country..”

    You know if Mr. Cohen wasn’t before perhaps he now is due to his remarks. Which leads me to say that I’d think that Mr. Cohen, who identifies himself as just a “talk show host”, may have a bigger responsibility to his viewing and listening audience. When one has the mike, they are in a pretty strong position to mold and influence public opinion It is a powerful tool. I think in his quest and seemingly utter determination to be “right” on Hillsborough unfortunately he’s managed to alienate himself from many people who should be able to trust his remarks and look to him to elaborate intelligently on the disaster. I’d think a good tv program host and broadcaster should be able to confront his biases (they all have them whether we like it or not) and be sensitive to the concerns of his audiences. With his remarks, I’m afraid Mr. Cohen comes off as simply not respecting his audience. One certainly can have an opinion but I think it should respect and udnerstand what has gone before.

    And btw would this stand in the UK? I’d be curious to know if he was say on the BBC would they still give him air time after all this?

  313. Shakira says:

    Tank99:

    I am sure you will now hear that his apology was insincere and they wont accept it. This was never about apolgies or facts, for many it was a personal vendetta that nothing Cohen said would matter. I can’t wait to hear how many said that they would lay off after an apology still wont as they will call it fake and insincere.

  314. Joe says:

    I have just seen the apology.

    I welcome Cohen’s admission that the disaster could have happened to any club. This is a good start.

    However, I object to what Cohen seems to be apologising for. He is apologising for exercising free speech. This was never denied him, nor did anyone seek to deny him this. He is once again appealing to the lowest common denominator. Those who are unable to see that a peaceful boycott is an equal application of democratic free will.

    What we object to is his accusations in the absence of evidence. If he is unwilling to offer any evidence to support his “view”, then it warrants zero respect. He’s welcome to his opinion, and he hasn’t retracted it. We are entitled use our democratic right of boycott, and our rights as consumers to make choices of which products we support.

    He has not retracted his “opinion”, just apologised for having it. It’s a false opposition. He’s allowed his opinion just fine. But either offer evidence to support your opinion or retract it.

    What I find unbelievable is this statement

    “Finally, to those out there who have hidden behind computers to send correspondence including death threats know that your actions and words hurt this game in this country more than help it.”

    Excuse me mate, the people who have supposedly sent death threats hurt the game in this country, not the majority of us who have tried to be rational and adult. Lumping us all together again isn’t going to cut it.

    “the baggage that this game at times carries with it from the past is only re-enforced and emphasized by threats of violence and death”

    There are a minority of fans from all teams who sing offensive songs about tragedies. They are the baggage. Cohen is one of them.

  315. evertonian_rob says:

    your a disgrace cohen. the events of hillsborough were dreadful and shocking – yet to blame liverpool fans for the disatser is dispicable on your part!

    If it had been any other team, any other set of fans and the same would of happened, and i’m sure you would be thinking differently, because you are obviously using this as a way of voicing your dislike for liverpudlians.
    Regardless, you are clearly victimising all liverpool fans because you’re a narrow minded twat who clearly has no undertanding of the hillsborough event whatsoever. Such a touchy subject, still fresh in the minds of football fans, should be treated with caution and having a sound understanding of the facts is a must!

    Furthermore, you are a hypocritical c**t – rewind back to 1995 when Chelsea played away in Belgium v Club Bruges, there were Chelsea fans detained for stabbing Belgians and carry forged tickets to get into the ground, which epitomises how stupid you must be to critisize liverpool fans when 6 years later, afters eeing what happened at hillsborough you fans are forging tickets to crowd out a stadium! You are an horrible sly twat you, you really f*kin are!

    I hope for your sake you never set foot in liverpool, you really are scum!

    RIP 96

  316. Seve says:

    I just hope Liverpool never get in a European cup final again, look what happend in Athens, jumping the gates and taking tickets off youngsters(but it’s not their fault), I’m ashamed to be English.

  317. Philip says:

    First of all, to criticise supporters for not sympathising with other victims of football disasters is ridiculous. If you walked home tonight and found your family murdered, would you all of a sudden adopt the cause of every murdered family across the country that day? Of course you wouldn’t, however it doesnt mean that you dont sympathise, it just means you only have only enough resources to dedicate to your cause. Its very easy for people who have never experienced the sudden unexpected loss of a loved one at the hands of ineptness to criticse those who choose to fight for their deceased loved ones. The British Government has an obligation to its citizens to administer truth and justice, a simple review of the facts will tell you that those people lost their lives that day as a result of prejudice (the notion that football fans where all hooligans) and a complete dereliction of duty. If you think thats wrong, pray to God its never your son,daughter, father, mother lying dead at a sports stadium, you might find you would think a little differently about things. To suggest the disaster happened as a result of ticketless supporters is a hypothesis that crumbles against the most minuscale of scrutiny

    As for the absolutely ridiculous post from the guy who said the U.S is a civilized nation that doesn’t worry about death threats etc, i wonder if you asked the Kennedy family, Ronald Reagan, Lincoln, the afghans, the vietnamese, the iraquis etc if they found that the U.S was void of a sinister side what would they say? Human debauchery knows no nationality, race, religion, gender.

  318. Mike Sheeley says:

    Steven Cohen is a disgrace. Any true football fan knows how wrong what he said is.
    As an Arsenal fan I would like to point out that I support the efforts to remove him, any one that loves football should be outraged.
    That was 96 innocent people for Christs sake.

  319. Joe says:

    In light of Cohen’s “apology”, I’d like to reprint Philip’s apology.

    “Let me just say this, having taken the time over the last few weeks to study the taylor report, read eyewitness accounts and erase all my pre conceived notions about what happened that day, im left with the conclusion that i’ve been absolutely dead wrong on this. Its blatantly obvious the SYP are fully responsible for this heartbreaking tragedy, they where completely inept and the British Governments lack of action in bringing to justice those responsible is a disgraceful insult to the the 96 people that lost their lives that day. Equally despicable was the coverage of the disaster from the right wing rag ‘the sun newspaper’ i fully understand the outrage from Liverpool fans at this particular tabloid, they’re a disgrace. I want to apologise to people i may have offended with my misguided views, i can assure you, my slant on this has been changed for life and never again will i say what has been said prior.”

    This is a good example of a thoughtful apology, showing integrity and class.

    Cohen preceded his “apology” with the words “We’re going to put this crap to bed.”

    What a nice guy.

  320. NikkiMc says:

    Takes a big man to pubically admit, first of all, that had pre concieved ideas about the disaster and to then admit he was wrong and point out why he was wrong.

    Philips apology is fully accepted without reservation.

    Steve’s Cohen, your a fool and your stubborness and insenserity is as clear as your lies, ignorance and malice.

  321. Shakira says:

    I knew even if Cohen apologized it would be taken as insincere and not enough. All those who said an apology would be a good start yet say now its not good, you are hypocrits. Either an apology will be enough or it isnt. You dont get to set the rules about what is sincere and what isnt. I knew this was a persona vendetta against him. You people never cease to amaze me in the wrong way.

    @ Tank99: Told you it wouldnt be enough for these people, it never will be.

  322. Paul Bestall says:

    Perhaps if he hadn’t started it with “Let’s put this crap to bed” maybe people would have given him chance. Why say that? Why not be big enough to simply apologise without the snide remarks?

    Remember that when someone apologises to you when they’ve spread unsubstantiated, untrue and factually incorrect lies about you. As the posters point out, Phillip who had echoed Cohen’s idiotic comments, has unreservedly apologised and people have accepted it unreservedly. Compare that to Cohens, and you will see why people are not happy.

    As for the arguement of free speech and holding up the United States as a bastion of civil liberties, free speech is fine, but if it’s factually incorrect then how can that match that definition? To defend lies by saying people are welcome to say anything they want is a ludicrious and frankly infantile response to the people who wanted an apology. If not surely the KKK need to hire better lawyers because being racist is simply free speech according to the twisted logic on here.
    There is no defending the death threats or racial abuse, but how many were there in comparision to people actually asking correctly? If he’d not spread this poison across the airwaves, it wouldn’t have happened. It’s simple.

  323. Joe says:

    Shakira

    I felt relieved when I heard he had apologised. then I heard it on youtube.

    Was the prolonged, audible screwing up of the piece of paper immediately after having read it part of the sincere apology?

    What about “let’s put this crap to bed”?

    What about the following five minute piss-take of the guy representing the people he’s supposed to be apologising to? I’d be interested to know what constituted an insincere apology in your view?

    “You dont get to set the rules about what is sincere and what isnt.”

    I’ll be the judge of that thanks. Check the apology from Philip. Proof that a genuine apology gets a genuine acceptance.

    By the way, I neglected to mention that he actually apologised for the wrong thing. You won’t know what that is since you’ve repeatedly shown yourself on this thread to be an earth shatteringly stupid individual. As such you help constitute the lowest common denominator group that Cohen is pandering to. You clearly love his show, so carry on listening. You’re the exact type of person it’s aimed at.

  324. Shakira says:

    Actually I only listen to his show a couple times a week, I’m not a big fan of his due to his total disreguard about anything outside the BPL, like that is all there is football wise. I like Kenny and think he is a good co-host and better then Cohen. I have said over and over again, Steven was wrong about what he said, how is that being stupid. I know what happened at Hillsborough and it wasnt what Steven said. He was never going to make a sincere apology, he hasnt changed what he believes, and he never will most likely. So calling for an apology when you knew damn good and well he wouldnt mean it was bogus then he makes the insincere apology and everyone gets up in arms when you knew it would happen? What did you expect, for him to suddenly see the light when he has held these views for years.

    I dont care if Steven apolgizes or not, he was never going to mean it so its useless asking for one. I’m not shocked one bit he didnt apolgize for the right thing, that is how he is and he isnt going to suddenly change. I don’t condon what he said, nor am I surprised he was totally insincere. Nothing short of getting him off the air or in some cases, him dead (those who sent death threats) will be enough to make you happy.

    With that, I’m done with this topic. Nothing is going to change, hasnt changed and he will still think the same thing tomorrow. There is more to life then this topic and I’m tired of seeing it like there is nothing else in the world other then this. This wont bring back the 96 and it wont achieve the “justice” some claim to seek.

  325. Mark says:

    Phillip have you ever heard of Mother’s Against Drunk Driving? Or the Victim’s Rights Movement? All kinds of people on a daily basis act in solidarity with others in similar situations and to prevent the tragedy from happening in the future. There are also victims of human rights abuses etc.

    The ironic thing is as I said- and even more than I thought one quote used to fan the flames here was actually about the disaster in the Ivory Coast. But of course it is only outrageous if it is about LIverpool. Steven’s comments today address this kind of myopia.

  326. Mark says:

    evertonian_rob 05.18.09 at 3:59 pm

    Steven has condemned these Chelsea fans and do so without reservation. He has also condemned Chelsea fans who made antisemitic chants at Grant last year. Did about 10 minutes on it last year. He unlike others does not defend the behavior of Chelsea fans when they are wrong nor does he make excuses for it.

  327. Philip says:

    First of all, i commend the people who have unreservedly accepted my apology, i am sincerely touched by that sentiment.

    Mark, i have heard about M.A.R.D of course the woman who started that organisation was later to be arrested for drunk driving. Im relatively certain if the victims of other stadium disasters wanted to form a coalition with the Hillsborough Families to unify in their fight for justice they would be welcomed. Sometimes you just can’t defend the indefenseable, i’m not saying the SYP had murder on their minds but i completely understand the anger and frustration from the families when 20 years on they still havent had one indictment over it. These people will never get their loved ones back, close your eyes Mark, picture your closest loved one dying an unneccessary death, a death that was the responsibility of another, now picture someone telling you to shut up and accept it, if that doesnt make you angry, you’re not human. No supporters in that era where angels, it doesnt mean 96 deaths where self inflicted, in fact, speaking from experience, you will be utterly ashamed at what you believed to be true for so long if you take time to study the unbiased facts. You dont have to support Liverpool to sympathise with the human element that premature death is painful enough but when those responsible are exonerated it only serves to stoke the flames of determination. I hope one day i wake up to read the headline “Justice for Hillsborough is finally served” not just for the families but for everyone who has dealt with the tragedy every day for the last 20 years. Its the least they deserve.

  328. Joe says:

    Mark

    “Phillip have you ever heard of Mother’s Against Drunk Driving? Or the Victim’s Rights Movement? All kinds of people on a daily basis act in solidarity with others in similar situations and to prevent the tragedy from happening in the future.”

    “But of course it is only outrageous if it is about LIverpool.”

    So Mark, presumably you’ll be posting on any websites that are against drink driving saying “it’s only outrageous if it’s about sons/daughters killed by drink driving”. And then I guess you’ll contact those campaigning for victims rights telling them “..but of course it’s only outrageous if it is about victims rights”. This hang up you’ve got, about how because people protest something, it must automatically mean they don’t care about anything else, is genuinely extraordinary.

    I don’t think I have ever encountered such a confused viewpoint as your own. You imply day after day, over and over again, that because people want to boycott Cohen, they automatically therefore by definition don’t care about anything else. And yet you are on here posting about the boycott every single day, even though you think it’s trivial. You can’t be regarded as a serious person with such a bizarre, illogical outlook.

    But of course the protest is only outrageous if it is about Hillsborough. Right?

    You’re ridiculous.

  329. Mark says:

    Joe-

    I am trying to understand your post- seriously. MADD don’t just campaign about the tragedy of their own loved ones but about the issue of drunk driving more broadly. Victim’s rights organizations or human rights organizations are not just campaigning about their own personal issue but place it in a broader context. They travel around the world or around the country, the promote legislation and international intervention.

    My point was when I raise Steven’s comments about the Ivory Coast disaster or other issues you get deafening silence from fans of Liverpool fc. Even some said, “those are not our dead.”

    It raises the question is it really upsetting that people went to a football match or died unnecessarily, or is it only upsetting because they are LIverpool fans. Too often the discussion here and on other message boards sounds a lot like the latter rather than the former.

    Maybe it makes no difference to you and is a silly distinction, but I think it matters to some as to how to understand this movement. Is it a movement about justice or really just about partisanship. That’s because many of the comments here and elsewhere tend less toward the issue of tragedy and death and more towards the “don’t mess with liverpool.” The latter really turns people off. When combined with the threats etc, you end up getting the coverage you got in the Daily news,NPR and the NY Times.

    In my opinion going about it all the wrong way has damaged the image of the game in the US and now what Americans understand about the incident is more about partisan hatred than the tragedy that occurred. You can blame the reporters but that coverage was predictable given the way this boycott and response has unfolded. It is exactly what I warned about it, in this blog when I tried to explain how to frame the issues and that the boycott was not the best tactic.

    Sadly Cohen made his statements and waited to long to apologize. Sadly too many websites were irresponsible and fanned the flames. Sadly this all unleashed a torrent of hate. Sadly the American press focused on that hate because it overshadows the most important thing- grief for the victims and insuring the tragedy never happens again. Sadly it also makes football fans seem again like a bunch of angry nuts.

    I wasn’t just against the boycott because I thought Cohen was right and should not apologize. I was against it because I knew it was going to be counter productive and a lot of the communication was irresponsible and worse than what Cohen had said.

    Now the historic record is three mainstream media pieces that portray the game and its fans as nuts. A series of websites and message boards with death threats and racist statements and a bunch of hate.

    Yes, Cohen started it, but the actions of others have been equally irresponsible. Sad story. It is tough to watch a preventable car wreck. Maybe you won’t get it.

    The tragedy begets tragedy. I can’t see how any of this has honored the memory of the 96 or the countless other fans who have lost their lives in tragic incidents.

  330. phil says:

    If you ask most people who were around at that time watching the game on TV or otherwise, then it’s clear the fans were to blame. And had certain fans behind in the queues behind, been more in control of themselves than fans in front would not have died. No one gives you permission to do a stupid thing and push others in front of you. Logic of the individual should come into play somewhere but human nature says (push in) It was an accident that should never have happened, and I hope it’s been learned from. Don’t forget it was Liverpool fans who caused the deaths in the Heysel Stadium too in which 39 died and 600 were injured. It was the first of two stadium related disasters of which Liverpool was a part. The tragedy resulted in all English football clubs being placed under an indefinite ban by UEFA from all European competitions (lifted in 1990-91), with Liverpool F.C. being excluded for an additional year and a number of Liverpool fans prosecuted for manslaughter. The disaster has been called “the darkest hour in the history of the UEFA competitions”. People who lose children never really move on. They get on with their lives but the lives of those left are never the same. Perhaps anyone who pushed and lived that day should hold their hand up and take the blame, because that’s were blame really lays.

  331. NikkiMc says:

    Phil, you do realise there is video footage of the crowds outside the turnstiles which completely counters your ‘opinion’.

    You do realise that the area outside the turnstiles could only hold 5000 people at an absolute maximum and 24?000 people were supposed to pass through this area?

    You do realise that the health and safety executive revealed that, at the leppings lane turnstiles ques were 3.5 times more likely to form than at any other area around the stadium?

    You do realise for 24?000 people to have got inside the stadium before 3pm all fans would have had to arrive at the stadium before 1pm.

    You do realise that in 1981 south yorkshire police accused tottenham fans of bringing ticketless fans following the crushing incident which left 38 people needing hospital treatment.

    You do realise that, after a 6 year gap when the fa reselected hillsborough, that the kick off for leeds cov semi final was delayed due to large crowds forming at the leppings lane turnstiles.

    You do realise that police officers sent memo’s to senior officers that the turnstiles dont provide away fans with anything like the access required to gain enterence to the stadium.

    You do realise that eastwood and partners drafted ideas for extra turnstiles to help ease the problem but non of the designs were implemented by swfc.

    You do realise these problems date back to 1934? when a large crowd formed at the leppings lane turnstiles, a gate somehow ‘’sprung open” allowing a crowd to enter and a mr frederick hill being crushed to death.

    I dont suppose you do recognise these facts as they dont fit in with your clear agenda.

    The darkest hour in football remains the games governing bodies failing to take responsibility for the safety and organisation for the game which lines their pockets.

  332. The Gaffer says:

    The comments regarding the Steven Cohen controversy have been closed.

    It’s time to return the discussion to football.

    Cheers,
    The Gaffer